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William Green Episode Script

Sean: William, welcome back to Look at You there. How you doing today?

William: I’m great. I’m really happy to be back with you. It’s a pleasure to see you again.

Sean: It’s so great seeing you. I was just saying before we got started, so many of our conversations have led to so many more interesting conversations in my own life. You’re one of those people who I view as cascades of knowledge. You’re like a waterfall. That leads to so many interesting insights that I wanna explore, and I think that’s what’s gonna happen here is it did it on our first conversation on episode 2 43, but I’m really curious, looking back over your entire career, has there been a mindset of yours that you think’s been incredibly impactful for your own life personally?
William: I think having relentless curiosity is pretty helpful. just not really knowing where anything is gonna take you, but being open to just learning stuff and maybe because I don’t have a very orderly mind. I’m inclined to just chase after whatever does interest me, which is kind of, it’s a little frustrating at, at times.

I can never remember that if this is actually true or, or, or I’ve sort of invented this in my mind, but I have this image of watching the Simpsons movie many years ago, and there’s a moment where I think Homer is trying to rescue, his son. And he, he suddenly stops and he is like, Ooh, donuts, and, and totally forgets he’s trying to rescue his son.
And I have a little bit of that where I just I’m, I’m going down one lane and then suddenly I’m like, donuts. And that donut might literally be an extraordinary work of fiction that then I start reading and then forget that I’m reading and, but I’m very intensely involved with it while I’m reading it, and then I shift to something else.

And I’m very intensely involved with that. One of the most, surprising things I’ve found is that these areas that I chased down that seemed to be weird digressions, turned out to be the main path in retrospect. often these things that I was slightly sheepish and embarrassed about because I, look, I started off as an English literature student at Oxford, right?
Had no interest in business, money finance. I thought that was all kind of crass and vulgar. And then I start to discover the stock market in my twenties, and that becomes a weird obsession. And then I become really interested in investing, but I become weirdly interested, not in the numbers or anything like that, but actually in the psychology of it and the philosophy and these deep questions like. Well, if you’re trying to predict the future, and yet the future is unknowable and everything changes and nothing stays the same, how the hell do you do that? Are you just lost? Or are there ways in which you can stack the odds in your favor? And then that radiates out in all these different directions?

Because at the heart of Buddhist philosophy is this idea that everything changes, that nothing’s permanent. And then I start studying that in other areas. And so I’ll be sitting on a Shabbat in a, in a very eccentric place where I go for, a Shabbat service every Saturday. And, I’ll be looking at one of the portions that we’re reading, and it’ll say something like, everything with us, everything dies, everything with us.
But his word is forever. And I’m like, wait a second. So these guys are saying actually that the creator that’s permanent, there’s something that isn’t impermanent. And then I start to study more Buddhism and like, Oh, wait a second. Within this space where everything is happening, there’s this open space like the sky where there’s just sort of, of awareness of things happening in there.
And I’m like, so that’s, so there’s some sort of permanence even there, like your, your consciousness or I was talking to someone the other day, is an extraordinary guy who, is a translator from Tibetan. And he was saying to me, well, I believe that our mainstream continues from one life to the next. in this weird kind of erratic, slightly irrational way, I’m just chasing off to all of these things.
And then in a way, it’s a great disadvantage because my mind isn’t linear and it’s not just on this great track, this single track where I can set up a schedule that works and keep at it. But in a way it’s a great advantage as well because I’m going off in these weird directions. And, and then making odd connections.

 I think if there’s any takeaway at all, it’s that you somehow have to embrace your own form of craziness and idiosyncrasy in order to perform well at anything. I can’t deny the fact that my brain is wired that way and that I’m just intensely curious. I have to harness it in some way while also being aware that there are weaknesses to that approach and that it would be good if I could, strengthen my ability to be more linear, for example.

 

Sean: Yeah, it’s interesting how the disadvantage becomes the advantage for you. it’s really interesting to see people finally accept the, those idiosyncrasies. And it might be Graham Duncan who’s got a, a great article speaking about embracing your funk and those idiosyncrasies, because those are what’s gonna sustain.
That’s you getting in touch with that and I’m wondering for you, what opened up the floodgates to allow you to do that? Because so many people go through their lives trying to fit another mold that’s not them.

 

William: I still haven’t fully embraced it. I think there’s some element of shame and guilt about this the whole time where you look at things and you’re like, why can’t I have a linear structure to my day? Why can’t it go, you know, I’ll start, the day with a plan to do something and then it’s just gone in a totally different direction and I do feel some guilt and some shame about that. But then increasingly, I’m. Trying because of my slightly half-assed meditation practice, because that’s as distractible as everything else. To, to watch that happening, to watch the guilt and to watch the shame and to be like, oh, look, there’s a little bit of shame arising. There’s a little bit of guilt arising, and where do I see that in my body and where do I see it in my mind?

And why has that served me? What, what was I doing to allow myself to beat the crap outta myself so that I could wrestle myself to the ground and try to perform in a way that would satisfy other people? And so obviously it worked to some degree, this effort to beat myself up and to feel a little guilt and a little shame. But I think it was kind of a primitive technique. And as I get older, I’m, I’m trying to be more aware. Of these things that kind of worked when I was younger, but that don’t really serve me. They don’t really help me. I, I think it’s a form of fragility in some way to beat yourself up a lot. it makes you unhappy.
 it’s not a very resilient way to live. if you think of raising kids, if you, if you were constantly like, I can’t believe you did that, you schmuck it has a totally different effect. maybe they would, smarten up their act for an hour or 15 minutes or whatever.
But I don’t think it works in a lasting way. Whereas if you put your hand on the shoulder of, ahead of your young kid and you say, you’re a really extraordinary person and I have so much, confidence in your, your talent and your ability and your kindness and your, your decency and your compassion, your ability to do extraordinary things in your life and.

I know you feel lost, but I’ve, I can see that you’re gonna be extraordinary. That has a totally different impact. And it’s curious to me that we often don’t do that to ourselves. And, and so I, as part of my attempt, I’m constantly trying to work on stuff. I have no sense of, I’ve figured this out and here I am, and this is what I do.

I’m, I’m constantly a work in progress. And so one of the things that I’ve been working on for years is this kind of rewiring where I’m trying to be kinder to myself. I, I got a message from someone on LinkedIn the other day. Lot, lot of the guy who’ve never met in person, but who, um, who’s, I think he’s a PhD in, computer engineering, something like that.

 

A really smart guy, really talented, accomplished guy. And he writes me something, asking for advice about how to deal with some floor of his, I think it was, um, Jealousy, envy. And obviously I’ve written about this and talked about it a bit cuz one of the things that, that I spoke to Charlie Munger about, when I interviewed him was about, how you deal with these negative emotions.

 

And I was just trying to say to this guy, what I’m trying to say to my myself, which is, you didn’t ask to be wired this way. have a little self-compassion. Like to some extent it’s like our survival instinct. It’s the organism trying to keep itself safe. It’s like we’re sort of, we’re trying to beat out other people and do better than them and get ahead and it’s like, it’s part of how we were wired to survive.

 

 I think there’s a kind of better way to do it. And then when you sort of shift towards things like appreciation and a sense of abundance, a sense of your own good fortune and,this beautiful idea in, in Buddhism, which I’m no expert on, although I read a lot about it, this beautiful idea of, Empathetic joy, so there are these things where you can build these tremendous virtues, like empathetic joy, where you’re actually like really happy for other people’s success.

 

But then you see it, you see these moments where these negative emotions come up and you’re like, you look at someone else and you’re like, I can’t believe they’ve done so much better than me. I’m smarter than them and I’m more talented and I work hard and I can’t believe everyone else likes them so much.

 

You know? and I’m trying more as I get older to see that stuff as it arises and not judge it. And part, partly this is the, that I’ve benefited tremendously from studying this great Tibetan Buddhist meditation master, a guy called Tsoknyi Rinpoche, who I had on the podcast with Daniel Goldman. and Sony Rimer has this beautiful idea.

 

I don’t know if I’ve talked to to you about this before, maybe cuz I’ve been playing with this idea for a few years now. But Sony has this beautiful idea. Where you, do what he calls handshake practice. Whereas these beautiful monsters, these, these negative thought patterns or negative emotions arise. You don’t, you don’t judge them. You don’t condemn them. You don’t try to apply an antidote to them. You handshake them and you sort of say, hi. Oh, there you are. There’s, there’s jealousy arriving. there’s self contempt, there’s self laceration, there’s sadness, there’s anger, and and there’s something about the acknowledgement of them, the seeing where they are in your body and your mind in a gentle, warm way without condemning them. That, I think allows the energy to dissipate a little bit. and so in a way it’s not, yeah, it’s not that I’ve somehow, reached some sort of incredibly elevated state where I don’t have all these negative emotions anymore, and I don’t feel like. shame, guilt, envy, pride, all of these things.

 

I feel all of them. 

 

but I try to be, I try to be a little more gentle about the fact that they exist. I try to recognize them so I don’t necessarily succumb to them. And Mungus said to me when I asked him how you deal with this stuff, like, how you deal with these really intense, negative emotions.

 

He’s like, I just don’t let them run cuz I know they’re stupid. 

 

And maybe that works for him. I mean, to know that anger, that extreme anger is just stupid. that is helpful to have this. I look back and I think of the times when I’ve been angry in my life and told someone what they’d done wrong or what I was annoyed about.

 

I can’t really think of a single occasion in my entire life. When that wasn’t a mistake 

 

as when, when I didn’t create more damage, so there is a sort of intellectual understanding like, oh, I better not go there. That’s probably not so good. but I still feel the anger, I still feel it arising.

 

 and I felt this the other night. I was,I, my daughter was gonna help me clean up the kitchen and I had to work until like 11 something at night. And I’m like, really? Now I’ve gotta clean the kitchen. Cuz she’s gone off to her room cuz she says she’s not feeling well. And it’s I sort of feel the irritation rising and I, I, usually I would just let it rise and just become really irritated.

 

But I was actually sort of watching it and it would, it became an object of curiosity and then, and I didn’t get quite so swept up in it. So I, I think this is really helpful for all of us, really like this practice of trying to abide with the emotions that are coming up and the, the, the feelings that are coming up, sort of seeing where they are in your body and your mind just, Not, not denying them.

 

I don’t know. Cuz I remember, you know, I became kind of friendly or friends with Tony Robbins over the years. I haven’t seen him in a couple of years. And he,he has a totally different technique where he immediately replaces, I’m probably sort of mispricing what he says, but, he’ll have a negative emotion come up and he’ll sort of replace it with a different emotion.

 

So I remember once, getting sort, sort of in a contentious situation with him and I was kind of upset with him and I could see that he was looking at me with this tremendous compassion as we were talking. And so he was very consciously, instead of going into a place of being defensive and reactive, he was going into a place of, I, we talked about it afterwards and he was like, I’m looking at this guy.

 

And I’m like, well, this. This guy’s my friend, and I don’t want him to be upset. I don’t want him to be sad. And I really appreciate him. He’s done all these things for me that have been really helpful and that, and I could see as I looked at him, I could see like his eyes are tearing up and, and so he’s got a totally different approach to dealing with these negative emotions coming up.

 

And he is like, in a situation like that, when it’s really contentious, it’s very hard to go straight to something like being more loving, but it’s pretty easy to access, appreciation, for example. I don’t think there’s one way to approach these things like guilt, shame, anger, envy, all of these things that come up.

 

 I think it’s a multi-pronged attack. you can, dismantle ’em in different ways, but I, I, I’m very drawn to the approach of Tsoknyi Rinpoche, which is, I would describe almost as radical non-resistance. 

 

And see this stuff arise and you’re not fighting it or condemning it, and there’s something.

 

 very beautiful about that practice and, and I, I found it unbelievably helpful.

 

Sean: Yeah. I love the handshake technique there. you said, it’s interesting. We all have our own little ways of handling this. For me, it’s just a, it’s a simple, what I call a four a framework. So awareness, accept, aim, action. So first, aware of the unsettling emotion and, and what you’re feeling the next step, and I think that’s what you’re alluding to, I, is the acceptance, not trying to change it.

 

Just accepting that for what it is. And then the, the last two is aim, well what do I want right now? You mentioned your interaction with Tony and did you guys wanna go down that negative spiral in fighting or do you want to get to a better place? And that’s the action. So it’s aware, accept, aim, act, and then just go right into that and allow that.

 

So I think it’s a bit of a merger maybe between the two.

 

William: Yeah. I think that’s a, that’s a beautiful approach, and if that, And, and it probably works for your personality as well. So I think you’ve gotta find something that works for your personality and your stage of life and whatever. I think sometimes I would argue with myself, I would use sort of rational analysis and I’d sort of be like, well you shouldn’t be jealous because look, you’ve got this and this and this, and, but then your mind goes in all of these kind of spirals.

 

And one, one of the things I learned from studying David Hawkins and the, the book Letting Go was that often, one emotion, is surrounded by thousands of 

 

thoughts, right? So, so really in a way, I found it not that helpful to go through these intellectual arguments sometimes of why I’m wrong to feel this emotion.

 

And in a way just to be aware of the emotion and to watch it. And then watch it change also, because everything is impermanent. And so the emotion’s gonna shift anyway. And so then watching it subside is really helpful. And then, you mentioned the other day in an, in an email, this meeting that I’d had with this extraordinary,Buddhist teacher called Khandro-la.

 

Very remarkable person. And, she only speaks, Tibetan. So a, a friend of mine, Adam Kane, was translating and I had a, a sort of few, few minutes with her. And it was an incredible privilege to spend time with her. and what was extraordinary was the degree to which she talked to me about anger and about dealing with anger.

 

And I didn’t ask that and she, but she was talking about the fact that really, the emotion itself, and this goes through all of these negative emotions, it, it has no permanent inherent essence to it. It’s not, this is one of the great teachings of Buddhism, right? It’s not like a stable entity where it’s like the anger is gonna stay forever.

 

It’s this thing, it’s gonna, it’s like everything. It has this kind of emptiness. so part of her point to me was that when you’re getting irritable or angry about something, it’s a frustration over things not working the way they should. It’s wait, I’m the one who’s working till 11 and here’s my daughter who’s on vacation from college and she can’t tidy up.

 

And really, and,you know, and then I’m gonna have to get up and work at 7:00 AM tomorrow cause I got another deadline. And, and she is, you know,you start to have these arguments in your head, but, but Khandro-la this great. But as teacher, her point is you are clinging to something you’re fixating on something that doesn’t even really exist, that has no inherent stable essence. And as you watch it and you see it change, it just drifts away. It just melts away. And I had this extraordinary sense after seeing her, where this image came to my mind that I’m, I’m clinging to air or water.

 

there are all of these things that I’m like,I’m clinging to my fury about the unfairness of something or the, and it’s really? What, what a joke. It doesn’t even exist. It’s like not, it’s just gonna be gone in a minute or in a day, and I’m not even gonna remember this.

 

And why did it upset me so much? So I think there’s also, there’s, it’s a little bit esoteric, but actually incredibly profound, this idea that because everything is changing and nothing has this kind of inherent stability where it’s just gonna be there forever, like this. We don’t really have to fixate it and clinging to it quite so much, we can let it go.

 

And so part of what I’m trying to do is actually just sort of lighten up a bit and, and watch it, watch the storm system pass through my brain and, and the anger and the irritation and stuff is not, it’s not such a common, it’s like more dramatic thunderclouds, but it’s not that common. maybe cuz I’m a repressed Brit and most of this stuff is happening under the surface.

 

What’s more common probably is anxiety where it’s like a general sense of, oh my God, I’m nom doing the wrong thing. I, I can’t remember what it is I’m supposed to do. And I’ve got about six different jobs. And it’s like you, so you always know that you’re dropping one of these balls or you’re failing to reply to someone or something like that.

 

and so I think being aware of this low, harm, this low buzz of anxiety is also helpful because you can. You’ll be, if you’re a little quieter, you can watch this stuff and you’re like, oh, as I said that my eye twitched or so I la last week I was trying to decide whether to go do a speech in Australia and as I was, and it was like, and then I’m gonna fly from New York to California, do a speech in California, then hang out for a few days and then go to Australia and then fly back to New York.

 

And I’ve got about four other jobs I’m doing at the same time. Am I gonna be able to do it? And as I’m, as I’m thinking this, my eye is twitching. 

 

Yeah. Not right now, but when I was thinking it last week, my eye was twitching. And, and so just to be aware of what’s my body telling me? what’s going on here?

 

What are like, is my body telling me not to? And it’s funny cuz I worked through this whole issue and things came together over the last few days and I am gonna go to California and do the speech and I am gonna go to Australia and do it. And as I speak to you about it, My eye is not twitching and I’m comfortable with it, and something has happened.

 

So I’m able also to look at it a little bit more and be like, maybe I’m not, maybe I’m okay with this. Maybe it’s not too much may, you know, so I think there’s just like this, this general sense that having greater self awareness of what is happening to you gives you an opportunity to make slightly more skillful decisions.

 

Sean: Hmm. Can you even dive further into, that paradox, right? The, between the, desire and striving to become as opposed to just being here in this present moment. Because you said before that you’re constantly curious, you’re constantly trying to learn. So how do you wrestle with that?

 

William: Yeah. It’s funny, I, I, we were talking, before we started about this, conversation that I had with Pico IA on, on my podcast, and Pico has this kind of doubleness,

 

Sean: I need, I need to tell my listeners because it was one I sent to multiple people. It really impacted me a lot. It was a beautiful conversation.

 

William: Thank you. Well, Pico has this kind of doubleness to him, right? Where he’s a travel writer 

 

who I think by the age of 30 had already traveled a million miles on one airline and yet he’s also obsessed with what he calls the art of stillness.

 

And he’s been on retreat about a hundred times, usually to a Catholic monastery, even though he’s not Catholic in the mountains of California. And so there’s this tension in his life between the monastic desire to be still in silent and the travel writers insatiable, relentless desire for movement. so I think all of us have this kind of doubleness to us in certain ways, this contradictory ness in certain ways.

 

And so I have this, I have this desperate yearning for peace and quiet and. Then this kind of almost comic inability to remain peaceful and quiet. and a desperate yearning for order and this comic inability to attain order. And even like, I was laughing the other day cuz I, did finally go on a silent retreat with Tsoknyi Rinpoche last year.

 

And, um, the, the guy, Adam Kane, who was the translator I was mentioning for Khandro-la, was the translator for Tsoknyi Rinpochee. And I was chatting to Adam a couple of days ago and saying I was the least silent retreat of all time. It’s like it turned out anyone who wanted to talk would end up asking me if we could have a chat while I was walking and I would end up like walking up a mountain with someone chatting and, and then I would discover afterwards that it was the only conversation they had had.

 

There was something about me that, 

 

like I was the one who was always talking with people and so, I don’t know. Yeah. So I have, so in the same way, this question that you ask about trying to become something and trying just to be and to be present in the moment, there’s this constant, contradiction.

 

There’s constant conflict. I’m always trying to change and trying to improve. And I greatly admired Arnold Vandenberg. You mentioned before when he, when he said to me when I was interviewing him for my book, look, I’m gonna, I’m gonna be working on myself till the day that I die. And, I spent a lot of time with him.

 

I’ve got another podcast episode with him coming out in a week or two, and he’s still, he’s working on himself constantly. I really admire that. But then there’s also this part of me that’s constantly trying to remind myself to drop into this moment and to be present here. And this was actually the question that I asked Khandro-la when I met her, cuz I, I, you had an opportunity to ask several questions and I actually literally only got to ask one question because, conversation about it ended up lasting longer and.

 

Really what I was saying is, look, I have so much stuff that’s coming at me all of the time. So many precious, so many different demands on my time and in many ways it’s really beautiful. It’s a really beautiful life. Thank God I have all these, amazing things that I get to do. it’s a joy that I get to chat with you and,interview all these amazing people and stuff.

 

It’s beautiful. I get to do some really wonderful things. But I said to her, I find it hard to enjoy it a lot of the time because I feel too much anxiety or too much stress, or, and, and it’s very hard for me actually to, to receive the gift in a way. And, and so this really is a big issue for me.

 

Like, how do you, how do you simultaneously try to work on yourself, try to become something, try to improve yourself, and yet also be present now in this moment. so it’s something I’m, I’m wrestling with constantly. I feel some degree of guilt when I meditate because I’m like, really?

 

No, I should be going off and doing this other thing. And sometimes I skip it. I try to do what I, what I would, I describe as a kind of morning connection where I do a few kind of capitalistic prayers and things, and I, I’m more fanatical about doing that every day or nearly every day than I am about my meditation.

 

So that’s really important to me. but I still feel guilt about it. It’s wait, I’ve got these deadlines. I should be doing this other thing. And, but there’s a part of me that’s constantly trying to drag myself back into this moment. And one of, there’s a, we might have talked about this privately before when we chatted, not on the podcast, I have.

 

I tend to have a lot of Post-Its or things that I’ve written stuff on. I, because, because my study was painted, I don’t have many of them up anymore. they’re in a desk drawer, but they’re kind of important to me, these messages that I keep trying to pound into my head. And I, so one thing I have is, I, I got a scribe to write out in Hebrew, a bunch of phrases that have important lessons for me.

 

And one of them in there, one of the words is Heini, which is, you’ll recognize it from a Leonard Cohen song, and it’s something Abraham says. It means, here I am and it has many different connotations. And, but one of the connotations for me is I’m here in this moment, right here.

 

Now let me remind myself to be here. But then there’s a great teacher of mine, a guy called Michael Berg, who’s a great capitalist, who I once said to him, I, I, there’s something about this word that’s very powerful to me. what are the connotations? What, what does it mean?

 

What’s the significance of it? And he said, well, there’s, there’s something that, I think it’s the prophet Jeremiah said, where he says “…”. And he said, I, I think God is calling out. And or someone is calling out saying, who will do this? And Jeremiah, I think it was, puts his hand up, or maybe it’s just in the book of Jeremiah’s, this is the level of my scholarship.

 

puts his hand up and says “…”, which means something like,here I am, use me. And so there’s a sense in this phrase, heini of like, here I am, yes, president in this moment. But then there’s also a sense of, yeah, here I am, use me, be, let me be a channel for something useful that can help other people.

 

And I love this sort of thing where a word radiates out in all of these different ways and there’s so many different interpretations of the same word. But in a way, by constantly coming back to that phrase, … and to the phrase …, here, here I am, and here I am, use me. It’s a reminder of, okay, let me try to be present and let me also try to be useful.

 

Let me also try to be someone who helps other people. And I, I remember once I seen Tony Robbins, when you go out on a stage, you have 12,000 people, what do you say to yourself? what’s the, what’s the thing you say to yourself in your head? And he said to me, I say, Lord, use me. I think that’s a, that’s a very, very interesting insight when you hear someone’s inner monologue, that tells you something about where they’re coming from.

 

And I, I’m not trying in any way to be proselytizing. I think that’s a very interesting mindset where you are trying to tap into being helpful to other people. Where you are, you’re,increasingly over the years, I’ve come to think that setting your intention is incredibly important in terms of your, your consciousness, where your intention is.

 

And I think if you start out by saying, yeah, use me, let me be a conduit for something helpful, something beyond my own ego. You put yourself in a different space than when you think, let me see how many downloads I get, and how many likes I get, and how much money I get. And, and I’m, I’m still very attached to all of those practical material, worldly things.

 

Like I’m not in any way disconnected from, the bullshit that you see on social media where it’s like, how many people followed this person or liked this act like, these companies figured out something deep about the, the less admirable parts of our personalities. And, and I don’t want to deny that I’m, subject to it.

 

but I think if I keep trying to put myself back in this place of, let me try to be a force for good, somehow let me try to be a channel for something more than my own kind of low lowly ego, it’s a better place to come from.

 

Sean: We had a beautiful discussion. This was offline where you walked me through your office with all of your Post-It notes and some of the, the amazing quotes and sayings. And after that call with you, one of the things that was in my notes is how can I be a conduit for good? It was one of those things you kept saying again and again.

 

I just love that phrasing. How can I be a conduit for good? And just thinking about that, like you just said, the intention of that every single day really has a tremendous impact. And one of the things I’m interested in hearing about the impact is conjure law and. When she was with you in her presence, what was that like?

 

 I’m asking this because I know you’re a fan of George Mumford, the performance coach for Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. I was talking to him recently and he said, being in Michael Jordan’s presence, there was a different energy, and I know a few of the people who were in your small group with Khandro-la and the energy that she had was different.

 

I’m just wondering what your experience was like with her.

 

William: Yeah, yeah. And I, I should mention, I was listening to your George Mumford interview this morning. I, I love George Mumford. I think he’s very extraordinary. I listened a lot to his class on 10% happier when I was writing my book. and, and his concept of, of finding the eye of the hurricane, a finding a place of peace within chaos, is a very beautiful idea.

 

It’s very profound. and I, I think he’s quite special. And it was interesting even hearing your interview, cuz you are like intense and you’re fast and you’re moving and he’s slow even though he was obviously sort of hustling a bit and he’d, overslept and he’d had a, an interview with Sharon Salzberg on her podcast the night before.

 

And it’s he was obviously like, like more jostled than usual, and yet he’s still slow and calm and poised and balanced. And so I think when you come in, the presence of people who embody certain characteristics, it’s very, very powerful. It’s more powerful than what they say often. And so with Khandro-la, likewise, one of the things that was most striking to me is there’s this kind of a, there’s a kind of joyfulness to her in a sense of freedom that she’s just there.

 

She just floats into this room. And so there were about 11 of us there. And, she floats into this room with a couple, a couple of monks and a couple of handlers. And, she has this very joyful, peaceful energy and I was supposed to,welcome her, I guess. And, and I completely screwed up and forgot what I was supposed to do.

 

And a friend of mine stepped in and started to introduce her. And there was some aspect of like, it was all a little otherworldly. Like you’re, you think you’re in control and you’re gonna do this and you’re gonna be a polished moderator type. Like I’ve interviewed so many people now, I’ve moderated panels and interviewed presidents and prime ministers and stuff.

 

And then the moment this, the moment she comes in, my smooth English, hosting skills just disintegrated. And I forget to introduce her and welcome her properly. and then, Nothing went to plan. So instead of, instead of just going into this little cube where she would have these private interviews, she sits down with us and talks for 45 minutes in this beautiful, extemporaneous way.

 

 so she’s just kind of going with the flow in this very light way. so that in itself is a very powerful example. Like not trying to clinging too much to your plan for how everything’s gonna be. she comes in, she sees the energy of the room and she starts to talk and she goes with the flow of it in a different way.

 

And then she went in the cube and did a series of maybe 12, 14 private meetings each for about 15 minutes and, and just no sense of tiredness at all, just totally fresh cuz she is helping you. And so I think as Arnold Vandenberg would say, when you’re just trying to help other people, it’s tremendously energizing.

 

And there was a, and then in my interview with her, there was a very, there was a very, this is an interview in a more Buddhist sense of you’re, you’re sort of sitting down for a private audience with someone and you ask ’em a question and they, teach you something that is very personal, I guess in this case at least.

 

And one of the things that was very powerful to me was about halfway through, she’s beaming at you and she’s lighthearted and she, she looks almost like a child. there’s a joyful lightness of spirit to her. and, and about halfway through, she’s telling me all this stuff about how to, how to live a happy, free life and how really a happy and truly wealthy life, it requires you to tame the mind.

 

it’s all an inside job. And so how you deal with these aversive emotions and things like that is really a, a tremendous part of having a truly wealthy life. and I look at her and I see that her eyes are totally welled up she’s seeing that there’s a total stranger you’ve never met before who’s trying to teach you something.

 

And as she’s trying to teach you something, she’s choked up, not in a way that’s obvious she’s not crying. And it’s not like I was telling her anything traumatic that would be upsetting. She’s literally, she’s just looking at a stranger who she’s trying to help and she’s so full of compassion and kindness and what I would call love for no reason that her eyes start to well up.

 

And when I look at that, eyes start to choke up because it’s so moving to see someone who just loves you for no reason. And so I think when you see that in your life, It has a tremendous impact on you because it’s not, so there’s a very, I, I’m, I’m not, some great Buddhist student or anything.

 

I regard myself much more,Tibetan Buddhism a very, very important part of my life. But like my primary path is studying Kavalla, which is this great sort of old mystical tradition, which I just find infinitely rich, but they’re very similar, in very many ways. And so I find it incredibly fruitful studying both.

 

So I’m not in any way trying to present myself as a, great sort of Buddhist scholar or practitioner. I’m like really, like in the shallow end of the pool, but, uh, and sort of flailing with my armbands, my, my, 

 

what do you call them in America? The water wings or whatever, you know, that’s more my image.

 

Um, Like some, some sophisticated Buddhist sitting on a rock in a cave, I, I know enough about this to know that they talk about body cheetah, right? About loving kindness and compassion. And when you see someone truly embody that, you, you, you feel it. 

 

And that’s a very beautiful thing.

 

And so I think part of, part of the takeaway for me is, if you, if you take this in a, in a more, more crass sort of pragmatic way, think of Buffett saying,hang out with people who are better than you because you can’t fail to improve. Which is something he said to my friends guy Mohnish, when he had his famous charity lunch back in 2008, I think, or 2009.

 

 so choosing your environment, choosing who you hang out with, choosing who you spend time with, whether it’s. The company you keep physically or your physical office space, or your friends, or the books that you read, think of Munger saying, that he hangs out with the eminent dead by reading about Ben Franklin or all of these people.

 

constructing the right environment is very powerful because it’s gonna,tilt you in either direction. And so, for me, part of the great benefit of spending time with Khandro-la, albeit, a short amount of time or spending time with Tsoknyi Rinpoche, or spending time with someone like Dan Goldman, who wrote the emotional intelligence book, because close friend, both at Tsoknvi and Khandro-la, you see these people who are very, very evolved, very present.

 

I mean, when you’re, I don’t know if you’ve ever interviewed Dan Goleman. 

Sean: Yes a couple of months ago he was on.

 

William: okay, great. So, so I, I became, Friends with Dan, just, just through a great friend of mine, Matt Luma, who I share an office with. I hope one day you’ll get to interview because we’re working on a book of his that, you’ll wanna write a you’ll wanna talk to him about in a, a year or so.

 

 but so I met Dan through my friend Matt. And one of the things that strikes me about Dan is he’s tremendously present. When you are with him, he’s just there. There’s not a lot of disturbance or distortion. He’s with you. And I’ve seen this when, you know, I ran into him with my daughter a year or so ago, and he’s totally present with her.

 

And, and I don’t know, he’s just, it’s the result of, I think to a great extent, 40 or 50 years of meditation. Like 

 

he’s deeply present, but there’s also a calmness and a kind of joyfulness there, and. There’s not a lot of ego, I don’t see any evidence of ego in the way he behaves. It’s not like he’s trying to impress you with how important he is or, that his book sold like 5 million copies or more.

 

it’s just, it’s doesn’t care. 

 

And partly it’s that he’s older, but partly I think it’s that he is done a lot of work on himself. And so for me that’s very valuable because I see Dan as someone, I think he’s probably 76 or something like that. I’m 54, so I see Dan and age is a little bit of a bogus construct anyway.

 

I’m not saying that matters, but I see him as someone who is further along the path. I see the benefits of the habits that he’s had of the meditation of the fact that he’s trying to help other people. The fact that he’s deeply present, I think, oh, let me get more of that. And so I think part of what we want to do, Is, I have this compulsion to try to make this in some way useful and not self-referential.

 

And so, so, so I keep wanting to say, you know, so the takeaway from this is, but I, but I do think this is a valuable takeaway, is, you know, to look at people who really deeply embody qualities that you want to have, that you value

 

Sean: Hmm.

 

William: and spend time with him and look at ’em and think, why, how did that come about?

 

You know, some of it, is probably just nature, it’s probably just in his wiring that he’s like lighter spirited and it’s not a huge amount of ego and stuff. Maybe it’s like the time of life. but I think some of it is stuff that he’s, he’s worked on himself. I, I saw it also when I, I went to the TED conference recently, and I, I, I saw Ray Dalio and again, like this tremendous presence, like after decades of meditation, like there was moment where I, I guess I’d only interviewed him over Zoom.

 

And we talked, we’ve talked a few times over the last couple of years over Zoom and, and I said to him, Ray, I don’t know if you remember, I interviewed you on my podcast, William Green. And he leans forward and he is like, yeah, you, you did a fantastic job. That was fantastic. You know, that was a wonderful interview.

 

And I’m not saying this to be self congratulated. It’s like he leans towards you and there’s this tremendous presence and intensity to it. You don’t feel there’s any distortion where he’s focusing on all of these other things. And that’s, so when I see that characteristic, I sort of think, so how am I gonna get more presence in the moment?

 

How am I going to be more concentrated on the person I’m talking to? What are these people doing? And so it gets back to something I write about in ritual wise, happier. This idea from Nick’s sleep of destination analysis. You think of a, think of a desirable destination and then you work backwards. And so, If part of the destination for me is I wanna be a, when I grow up and I’m in my seventies, God willing, and I look back, I’d like to be, you know, okay, so I became more compassionate, kinder person.

 

what am I gonna do to get there? And so all of these things really are practices to help me to get there, right? So what we were talking about before with handshake practice, like to see these, these things that are really just sort of, they’re like negative emotions that just block me from happiness.

 

And I remember Khandro-la said to me, um, when you become irritable or angry about something, and she wasn’t even really wording it as like you, so it didn’t feel like an attack on me. 

 

it felt like. She was saying one when one does this, but it was clear that she was saying it to me.

 

I think, she was, cuz also she didn’t say this to anyone else, so it was clearly designed to help me. But she said, you need to say to yourself, this is just my confused mind, it’s my own confusion. And when I, when you look at the other person, you realize where they’re coming from, what they’re going through.

 

 they’re just, trapped in their own confusion. and so you should have compassion for them. They’re suffering. And so in a way it gets back to what Tony did with me, where he looks at me when I’m really upset and he is like, I, I see my friend is just suffering. I don’t want him to suffer.

 

I, appreciate him. And, and so he’s putting himself in a different state. these habits are calling on you to be more compassionate and kinder to others than yourself. it’s just incredibly helpful I think when you look at people who embody those qualities. And then at the same time, Part of the hope, I guess I, I don’t really, I’m not very conscious about thinking about this, but part of the, part of the hope is that you become a better embodiment of these things.

 

And I think we do think of this with our kids, right? Like I,I very consciously during the pandemic started to use a Peloton pretty religiously. because I wanted to, partly control what I could control, which was my own health and weight and fitness and all of that. But partly I wanted to be a good example to my kids.

 

 and so I do think the desire to model good behavior is, is an incredibly powerful thing. Although I, I’m not doing it very well at the moment. It’s have exercise in a few days.

 

Sean: A busy schedule. Khandro-la, you were saying how she floated into the room and constantly had this, joyfulness about her. It reminded me of this line I heard about the Dalai Lama that I’ve never been able to forget, and it was ebullience is his resting state. Ebullience is his resting state.

 

And I think there’s something just really incredible about that. like you said, try to strive to get to that at some point later in the future. I just wanted to bring that up cause it was so beautiful hearing about her.

 

William: Well, I have a great teacher, cab called Etan Deni, who’s a wonderful guy. And, when I first met him about 15 years ago, one of the things that struck me was that he seemed free. There was a sort of softness and a lightness of spirit to him. And he’s gone through plenty of stuff over the years and, but I remember once coming to, I met him in London.

 

I remember once I, I was in New York and I met him in New York again. And I said to him saying like, where, where does that come from? That lightness where you just don’t seem, there’s no heaviness or worry or anxiety or anything, seems very present and very free. And he said to me, well, William, at a certain point you have no burdens of your own cuz all you are doing is taking care of other people’s burdens.

 

Sean: Hmm.

 

William: And I think that’s a consistent strain. When I look at people like Tsoknyi Rinpoche or Khandro-la or this other great catalyst that, that I study with Michael Berg, who, who’s a guest on the podcast in a few weeks. because they’re serving others constantly. They really have this desire to help other people.

 

There’s this strange paradox that they become freer. And it’s very helpful to remember this because, you know, most of us are sort of so stuck on the hedonic treadmill and we’re desperately trying to fill this hole. Where we’re like, if I just work harder and get more respect or make more money or build an extension or, buy the new iPad, which I got yesterday, or,

 

Sean: Hilarious. Cuz I was William, growth here. I literally had it in my cart on in Amazon and I said, you know what? I do not need this. Put this away.

 

William: Yeah. Well I will confess that my, my current iPad is like nine years old and the only thing I can do on it is read the New Yorker. It’s literally the only thing. you know, it’s not totally decadent buying the new one, but, but there is this attempt constantly I find to fill the hole

 

Sean: Hm.

 

William: with these things that, you know, aren’t gonna work.

 

Where, if I work harder, if I get more respect, if I get more success, if I get more money, if I get more. More that, more possession. If I redo the floor in my study with hardwood floors, which I am gonna do again, cuz I’m a sucker for these things, I like beautiful things as well. then I’ll be happy and satisfied.

 

And the great paradox really is that when you start to help other people more, you sort of get out of your own trap of, so, so you’re, you’re it’s, it’s a terrible trick of, of the universe that you chase after all of these things that you know aren’t gonna work and yet they’re so addictive that you keep chasing them.

 

And then there is this beautiful paradox that as you let go of that, and you serve others, then weirdly you get the happiness that you would chasing. 

 

And I see that with, with people like Arnold Vandenberg or I see the delight that he gets in helping other people. I see it with Tsoknyi Rinpoche or Michael Berg, Etan Deni.

 

And it’s very, it’s very powerful to see that. And I think you don’t really have to proselytize about these things. it’s not about being self-righteous, it’s enlightened self-interest. You’re like, okay, so if I wanna be happy, I’m gonna have to build some form of service into my life.

 

And so then if, if your, if your intention when you do your podcast is, let me be a force for good. Let me help other people. Let this be, let this book be something that’s useful. Let me, Yeah. I want it to do well. Yeah. I want to have financial independence. Yeah. I want people to think I’m talented or smart or that it’s better that I’m alive than not.

 

but. Let my intention over and over again be somehow to be a force for good. That puts you in a whole different space and it weirdly makes you happier. 

 

So there’s a, there’s a kind of master move there, I think, in shifting away from all these things that are designed to satisfy the ego. and the funny thing is, the more you study these things, the more you find these principles in every, in every spiritual path.

 

And so, one thing that I think you and I have talked about before that had a really powerful impact on me was reading these books by this great cavilist, Ravi Huda Ashlan. And he, he talks about how, you know you are born with what he calls the desire to a sea for the self alone. And so it’s like a little baby with their hands, clenched, desperately wanting milk now and wanting their diaper changed now.

 

And that’s. A little bit like I am in trying to get the new iPad and I want it now. And it’s like really? the keyboard isn’t gonna arrive for two weeks and it’s so outrageous. I’m like the little baby, like crying, crying on the bed. and then what ra what Rla said is that you gradually transformed that desire to receive for the self alone into the desire to receive for the sake of sharing.

 

And that’s a really beautiful idea because you are not saying you don’t wanna receive, you’re not saying you don’t want blessings in your life. You’re not saying, oh, I’m so righteous and so holy that I don’t care about having a nice home and a nice family and financial security as much as there’s any security in, in anything in life, and good health and all of these things.

 

You want those blessings. You want to receive those gifts, but it’s to share. And that’s a very beautiful principle that once you start to understand it, then you start to look at your own life and you start to say, okay, so when was I happiest? And you’re like, oh, I was really happy when I didn’t necessarily get that thing for myself. I think of this, I’m articulating this very poorly, but that meeting with Kler, all of it was arranged really by my friend Matt Luma, who I mentioned before, who I hope you’ll interview down the road. And Matt having managed not to get Covid the entire time through the pandemic, got, COVID like the day before Khandro-la came.

 

And so he’s hosting the whole thing. I think he’s paying for the whole thing. It’s in the place where we have an office together, which is this really beautiful space in Westchester, New York. And, He’s put so many hours into this thing, he’s like getting the deck painted and he’s getting it all cleaned and he’s got flowers and he’s physically not there.

 

And yet he’s set this thing up in such a beautiful way that I saw how joyful he was

 

Sean: Hmm.

 

William: while everyone else was having this incredible experience and in some, and, and so there you see it, you see someone who’s tapped into this idea of, transforming the desire to receive for the self alone into the desire to receive for the sake of sharing.

 

So he was, he was disappointed not to be there, but he was sort of on an iPad in a conference room and intermittently people would go in and chat to him and he was just sort of sitting there blissed out on a yoga cushion, on on a meditation cushion, meditating for many hours, just smiling and delighting in the fact that he’d provided this extraordinary experience for these friends of his. 

 

That’s a very beautiful thing when you see it. And I think, I think you sometimes see it with your own kids or something where you’re like,you don’t get to go to an event cuz you gave your kid the ticket. your family has two tickets for Hamilton and your daughter goes instead of you and you’re like, she’s gonna enjoy it.

 

And so I think,we all feel it. We’ve tasted it. It’s like when you were interviewing George Mumford and he said,you were asking him how do you, how do you talk to these people about getting into this flow state and get it, finding this still place in the, in the eye of the hurricane.

 

And it’s like, well we’ve all felt it. We’ve all been there. And so I think once you look back and you, you remember viscerally a time when you were happy cuz you weren’t just looking out for yourself, you know, you actually helped someone. Then you’re like, oh, this isn’t just like some dumb principle that, people are trying to persuade me.

 

It’s like, no, it’s actually true. And so if I want to be happier, if I want to have true abundance, I’m sorry, but I’m gonna have to actually be more sharing.

 

Sean: Hmm. How are you instilling this in your kids? I think your son’s 25. I’m pretty sure your daughter’s 22. Right around there. How are you helping them understand these principles when it seems like the whole world is trying to, what we were talking about earlier, add more intensity, get this check mark, do that.

 

I’m just wondering how you navigate that as a parent.

 

William: I give them a lot of mixed messages, that are not helpful, I suspect, because on the one hand, I have the anxiety of a parent who wants their kids to do well and make a mark in the world. And they’re both really talented and they’re singers and writers and artists. And my son is teaching at the moment and I’m, I’m kind of like there’s a part of me.

 

But I’m sure they feel my sense of urgency and competitiveness and all of my, my base, instincts that I want them to do well in life and be able to make money and be able to support themselves. and then there’s a part of me that’s I really want them to be kind and loving and compassionate human beings.

 

 and I want them to understand the importance of things like meditation and stillness and kindness, all of these things. And, and so I think, I think I probably give them slightly distorted and contradictory messages, that will require many years of therapy to un unpack and untangle. But I, I did things, I mean, if I think of things that I, when, when my better self was somehow involved over the years, one of the things that I think was probably helpful, and my wife is I think probably a much better parent than I am anyway, so, so that’s helpful as well.

 

One of the things that we did is very early on, we said to my son when he was very young, we won’t judge you by how well you do at school and things like that. We’ll judge you by how kind you are to your sister. 

 

And I think that they remember the fact that there was only one rule in the family that was to be kind to each other.

 

And they have their moments, where they’re in conflict, like everyone. but, that emphasis on kindness I think was very helpful. And I, I remember a couple years ago reading an article in the New York Times where I think it was Adam Grant had written about,how families with, with fewer rules have more creative kids.

 

And it was like the only time in my entire life that I’ve read any article on parenting and I thought, yes, I got something wrong. Cuz we, we literally, we were struggling to think of any rules that we have. At all. we never managed to set a consistent bedtime or anything like that. But the, so the one rule, and my daughter has talked about this in the last couple of weeks.

 

She’s like, well, the one rule that you had was kindness. and the other, the other thing I would say made that I hope has made up for a lot of flaws and mistakes and mixed messages and stupidity on my part is, I think we’ve been consistently loving. And so I think they have no doubt at all that they’re deeply loved.

 

And I think that’s, that’s very important. Knowing that your parent just really cares about you, just really loves you and, and wants the best you. That’s a fair, I think that makes up for a lot of things. it’s kinda like what I was saying before about setting intentions. I sort of feel like if your basic intention is to be a forceful good, it makes up for a lot of mistakes and stumbling and stuff because you’re coming back to that true north again and again.

 

Likewise, I think if you are. If you’re consistently, if you’re consistently being loving to your kids and you emphasize kindness, that’s very powerful. but the other thing, it has to be modeled behavior because they see when you are full of crap and when you are, words don’t amount to stuff.

 

So I think, I think trying to actually model the behavior that you would like to see in them is really important. So they they can see if I’m kind to my wife,

 

Sean: Hmm.

 

William: and that’s more powerful than me saying, be kind to people, they can see if I’m actually bothering to, clean the kitchen and stuff.

 

And I, I’m no saint on any of these, any of these matters, but, they, they see and, so likewise, they see if you exercise or if you meditate or if you. if you watch what you say and you sort of, you don’t just say the, the unkind thing, which has been something I’ve worked on a lot in recent years,t hat’s a very easy thing to change actually.

 

it’s quite hard to change things like simmering anger and frustration when you are stressed at the world not doing what it should do. but I’ve become better over the years at holding my tongue. 

 

Certain moments where I wanted to say something that was smart,  slightly cruel, or just, you know, and I, yeah, actually my family would contradict this.

 

I’m constantly saying things that smart, smart, ay, and sarcastic, but I definitely do a lot not to say unkind things, I, I probably censor about 80% of the unkind things that I would be likely to say. and usually they come out more when I’m sort of stressed 

 

or irritated. And so, yeah, I think it’s the modeling, the modeling of behavior, probably as the single most powerful thing.

 

Sean: Yeah. You mentioned kindness and something that you’ve shared with me that has had a tremendous impact on me. and you brought him up earlier, David Hawkins. I had been exposed to his book Power Versus Force, and then you opened me up to letting go and I’m pretty sure it’s chapter three on Emotions, which is what you were talking about earlier, which was incredible.

 

But the line you shared with me from David Hawkins that has forever stuck with me is simple kindness to oneself and all that lives is the most powerful, transformational force of all. It produces no backlash, has no downside and never leads to loss or despair. It increases one’s own true power without exacting any toll, but to reach maximum power, such kindness can permit no exceptions, nor can it be practiced with the expectation of some selfish gain or reward.

 

And its effect is as far reaching as it is subtle. You shared that with me, and I’ve thought about that just as much as any other quote I’ve come across.

 

William: Yeah, it’s very powerful and I, I think I talked about this on a recent podcast where I did a sort of highlights podcast. It was called something like, legends of Investing or something like that with, Mohnish Pabrai, Bri and, and Tom Gay. and,

 

Sean: Tom Gainer episode was awesome 

 

William: John, 

 

Sean: Yeah. 

 

William: And, and I, I was worried that people would think I was nuts.

 

I went off on about a 20 minute chat about why Hawkins has had an effect on me. Cause I was trying to sort of synthesize and, and distill and express some of the reasons why he’s had an effect on me. and that single line, that distillation to this true north of kindness is very powerful.

 

 I think I talk about a different book, his, which I think is transcending the latter of consciousness or something like that. It has some kooky, the kooky title. A lot of his books have these wonderfully. Eccentric titles, like literally just be the letter I and then a cola. and then I, I love this stuff.

 

I have an infinite capacity for reading these things. but in that book on transcending the levels of human consciousness, I think it was called something like that. he talks about the importance of finding a few principles that have stood the test of time, and as I would put it really going big on them.

 

And he lists about 10 of them. And, I think this process of simplification is incredibly powerful. I read about it in my book, right? This idea that in a very complex world where there’s so much information coming at us, there’s so many different ways we can go in life. so many competing ideas, so many competing practices.

 

For me, because I have this slightly disorderly brain, That’s going off in all different directions. It’s very important for me to have a few simple guiding principles that I can come back to again and again as a true nor. So every time I’m getting confused, I’m like, just try to be kinder. 

 

Just try to be, just try to be more compassionate.

 

 and there’s something about the repetition that’s very helpful, whether it’s through mantras or affirmations or looking at a quote like that one that you read, which I used to have on a card, just sort of stuck to my wall, although it isn’t since I got my room repainted. but as in my desk, the repetition is very powerful.

 

And so when you find these things that resonate with you, I think you want some way to keep coming back to them. I have one of the crazy things that I have, in my study, Is,you know, on that list of, of words that I mentioned that have been written out in, in Hebrew that the word heini here I am, is written on, there are about six lines and it’s, it’s in a kind of pyramid.

 

so I had it designed. so it has about six different phrases, and so I’m, not particularly organized or disciplined about coming back to the same schedule every day. But one of the things that I found helpful is to use something like habi, the app where you, you at least have a bunch of these, these habits that you’re gonna be reminded of, that you’re gonna tick off at some stage.

 

Some days I forget to tick off any of them, but, the, you know, one of them, because the top word on that list is ishma, which is a Hebrew word. The basically ra rahla, the caves I spoke about before, used to talk about. Giving pleasure to your creator, because that’s at the top of this kind of pyramid on my habit app list of, things that lead towards a more successful day.

 

one of the categories is the Ishma Mountain, and it’s just reminding me like, okay, so look at these phrases. And so one of the phrases, so, so ishma that idea at the very top, very, very powerful idea that it’s like, so whether you believe in a creator or not, and however you define it, I, I just think of it more as a, not as like a, an old man with a beard on a cloud.

 

I’m thinking like this force for good love, kindness, compassion, truth, sharing, so it’s something you feel rather than an institution or anything like that. and that, everyone else will define it. how, how they want. It’s very personal,  idiosyncratic, but so, If you want to give pleasure to your creator, then you start to think, well, so how am I gonna become more truthful, kinder, more compassionate, more loving, despite all of the flaws, all of the, the, the, primitive instincts that make me wanna, dominate wins, succeed, get, whatever it is, all, all of my base are instincts.

 

And, and then, and I think Hawkins is saying much the same thing with his ladder of consciousness that you’re trying to climb this ladder of consciousness where things like, shame, guilt, envy, anger just calibrate very low. 

 

And so the more you can, the more you can give power to things like love, strength, kindness, compassion, the better.

 

And so the, so again, having that word ishma. To give pleasure to my creator on that list is a way of dragging my mind back to that intention that goes in many ways against my instincts as a, man who wants everything to go my way. then underneath that, one of the phrases is, which is, basically means, and this too is for the best, and again, this is something I really tried to hardwire into my brain in the last few years, is this sense that whatever happens, it’s for the best, but whatever happens, it’s from the light.

 

 it’s for your benefit. And this is something that Tony Robbins would say over and over, right? He would say, life happens for you, not to you. 

 

And when I was younger, I would’ve thought that this was puerile and self delusional, and I would’ve thought, Just cuz you wish it to be true doesn’t make it true.

 

And these people who believe this crap are just delusional children. And and I think increasingly what I believe is because your consciousness creates your reality. You get to choose your thoughts. You get to choose, do I believe that the world is a hostile place that has it in for me and that wants me to suffer and all life is suffering and everything’s going to hell and it’s getting worse. And that, I just am a random beneficiary of good luck at times and a random victim of bad luck at times. Maybe that’s true, but I also think your consciousness creates that reality. And if instead you go through saying this too is for the best, everything is for my good, but a certain point it becomes self-fulfilling.

 

And you start to look at everything that happened to you. I saw, I used to be sort of, my daughter was saying to me yesterday, we were out on a walk in and I said something in passing where I was like, when I got whacked by Time Magazine. And she’s like, that language isn’t very useful. And I said, I actually, there’s no emotion to it anymore.

 

When I say, when I got whacked by time. Cause I look back and I, what an unbelievable gift that was. That it sent me off in this different direction that’s been so fruitful and that’s made me so much happier, thank God. And so, so that’s a data point where I can go back and I can say, well, and this too is for the best.

 

It didn’t feel like it at the time, but did I make it that way because of my attitude and because of my behavior? Or did I just get lucky? I don’t know. But that guy, ton Deni, who I mentioned ages ago, the one who said to me, you know, at a certain point you have no burdens of your own cause all you’re doing is taking care of other people’s burdens.

 

I had just started studying Kaar with him when I got whacked, like back in 2008, during the financial crisis. And I remember walking into a classroom where he was teaching and he said, how are you, William? And I said, I’m good, except I just got laid off. And I had two kids in private school who were being paid for at school by time.

 

And I lived in a beautiful home in London that was paid for by time. And suddenly it’s the middle of the financial crisis and magazines are falling apart, and I’m laid off and AAM puts up his arms and he says, such a blessing. And, I look back now and I’m like, yeah, he was absolutely right. And, part of what we do in life, right, is we tell ourselves these stories about who we are and what our life means and what happened to us and and so to some degree we’re just constructing narratives and we do.

 

Kind of choose what the narrative is. And so when I look back at that narrative, I’m starting to think, and I, there’s a part of me that’s very English and very Jewish and doesn’t want to tempt fate. And,that sort of superstitious and remembers my grandmother sort of, would always sound like, the co sax were coming any minute.

 

And, I don’t wanna tempt fate, but there’s a part of me that looks back in the narrative I think now, is God, I was being blessed all along. 

 

Like, I thought I was being cursed. I thought there was some terrible thing happening to me and my life was falling apart and nobody appreciated how great I was and how talented I was and how hard I worked and all that, and poor me.

 

Then I look back and I’m like, what an incredible gift. I was like being lifted up, put in a different situation, put in a different environment, given challenges to overcome 

 

that didn’t break me. They were really hard. They almost. Felt like they were gonna break me, but they didn’t quite. and they allowed me to break a big part of my ego in a very helpful way.

 

Cuz when you’re really smashed like that, you can’t really walk around thinking like you’re master of the universe. And so that also breaks you open and makes you receptive to things that you wouldn’t have been receptive to. So I never would’ve been receptive to teachings from Atan Deni, or Michael Berg, or Renpoche or Khandro-la.

 

I would’ve thought it was silly to be in a room with, a great Tibetan llama. and, and not silly. I would’ve thought it was curious.I would’ve wanted to do it because it was interesting anthropologically.

 

Sean: Hmm.

 

William: But I wouldn’t have thought, I’m gonna learn from this person.

 

Sean: Yeah, everything you were just saying there, William, it makes me think of this line from Tolstoy and its wisdom is understanding how eternal truth can be applied to life. And I just love that there are some of these big principles that are so foundational, so fundamental, and you need to apply them to your life.

 

So I just love some of the insights you provided there. I’m gonna let you get outta here in a minute, but I’d be so intrigued to hear decades of interviewing some of the world’s most successful people, some incredible people that you’ve mentioned thus far. If you could sit down and do another interview with someone over all those years, who would you like to go back to?

 

William: Yeah, I don’t know. I really don’t know. there’ve, definitely been a pressure to interview people because they were a big deal, 

 

cuz they were rich or famous or powerful or, had amazing returns or whatever. And what I find increasingly, Is that the, the people I most love interviewing are the people who, there’s something a little more soulful there.

 

And I mean, that’s why, you know, to interview someone like a Pico or a Dan Goleman or a … is like such a joy. And one of the things that’s kind of scary when you do that is that you are breaking away from the easy low hanging fruit of I’m gonna interview someone famous, who’s a great brand name, who’s got a huge following, and everyone’s gonna be impressed that it’s such a get.

 

And I think there’s a sort of tension here, right? Because there’s a part of us that’s very connected to material success and how people think of us. And then there’s a part of me that’s like, well, I sort of don’t really care about that stuff. Increasingly, I, I, I kind of do. But at the same time, when you talk to someone who’s really elevated in a remarkable way, it’s such a beautiful thing.

 

And in Hawkins terminology, it makes you go strong. So if I think about,the most impressive people I’ve met someone, someone like,this guy Michael Burke, I have coming on the podcast who’s a great catalyst and who started translating the, the Zohar, which this great spiritual text in 23 volumes.

 

He started translating at the age of 18. And, it was part of this team that finished over 10 years. His father was probably the most extra extraordinary person I ever met. And, I wish I’d got to spend more time with him. I never met him except after he’d had a stroke. and even then you would, you know, you would shake when you were in his presence.

 

I mean, there was something very extraordinary. I. You felt like you were in the presence of something very, very powerful. And it’s funny because he would, he would often get maligned and the catalyst would always get persecuted and maligned and were often, physically attacked or excommunicated or, it’s like the, the mystics in every path or the, whether it’s the so is or whatever the, it’s sort of the secret teachings.

 

And so there’s a part of you that’s judging this from a very worldly, perspective and thinking, am I right here? Am I confused? and am I missing something? And then there’s a part of you where when you are with someone like that, boy do you feel it. 

 

 so in a way, when I look back, I kind of wish that I’d spent less time worrying about, you know, this guy manages a hundred billion dollars, or This guy’s made $20 billion.

 

And had spent more time with the people who, who in some way made you go strong because there was something so powerful about their consciousness.there’s something deeply subversive about the fact that, I have this, supposedly investing podcast that are wise, happier podcast, but that I get people like Tsoknyi Rinpoche on it, And I love the fact that here I have the only probably the, it’s probably the only episode of any, any investing podcast with a guy wearing saffron robes, speaking in a Tibetan accent. And there’s something really kind of beautiful about that to me, because you’re trying to get at these deeper questions.

 

so what actually is wealth? what actually makes for a rich life? What actually makes for a successful life? And so I think all of us that because we’re, pragmatic people from, uh, A country that’s full of hustlers trying to make money, trying to get ahead, trying to build the extension, trying to buy the latest iPad, we are very much consumed with that mindset.

 

But then when you, when you actually connect with people who are going deeper, I, it kind of works out beautifully. And I’m, I’m sort of surprised when I look at the numbers. I dunno if you’ve seen this with your podcast. I’m shocked at how well the interviews with people who are not as famous, but are really deep thinkers how well they do.

 

And so I think there’s some, part of us that connects to this stuff where, when you know something is true or someone who’s deeply thoughtful, you feel it. And even if that’s not what they set out wanting, they listen and they’re like, oh yeah, that’s, that’s powerful. That’s beautiful.

 

That makes, that makes for a better life. And so I, I, I want increasingly to do more of that stuff. But I also, I interview a lot of investors who I think are like a very tiny minority of the investment world, who are very thoughtful, soulful, intellectually interesting. I’m, I’m less interested in interviewing people these days who I don’t really admire.

 

Um, I think of my youth, I spend a lot more time interviewing people because it was kind of, um, sexy in some way. like I would write about a murderer or a conman or something. Like, you know, I had an eye for a good scandal that I could write a good article about, and that was really fun. I would have these amazing experiences where I would, I remember once write, writing, writing, writing about some guy who, you know, when I, there’s this thing when, as a journalist where you, you would do what,This moment where you kind of lay out what you’ve got, what you’ve figured out in your investigation, and, and then give him a chance to respond.

 

And I remember once doing this in Spokane, Washington, and this guy takes out his gun and he is like standing in his kitchen with this huge rifle and stuff. And it’s kind of like, it’s a little scary, but it’s like really fun as well, so going after like scandalous, edgy stuff was really fun.

 

but then, you know, and so then you’d be like, well, so I write about this scummy billionaire who’s made a fortune, but is kind of rapacious. And I don’t really wanna do that anymore. And even, you know, in my book, I am richer, wiser, happier. I, I really like pretty much everyone I interviewed, you know, there were probably one or two people who I, you know, and I’m not lionizing them in any way.

 

Everyone has their flaws. But I’ve increasingly been focused on people who I think are a force for good. 

 

And they are thoughtful. They’re not, and I, I think that’s a, maybe that’s a natural evolution. Maybe we’re just less impressed with just, really that’s what you did with your life. You made billions of dollars and you left a trail of lawsuits and people who hated you.

 

Like, how impressive is that? Whereas I’d look at people, you know, someone like Arnold. I was talking to Arnold Vandenberg recently, and he is helping this young kid, a fellow, a mutual friend of ours. There’s nothing in it for Arnold. 

 

And I just see the joy that he’s getting out of helping this guy. And that’s just really cool.

 

And I just, I admire that so much more. in a way I kind of wish I’d wised up to this earlier, the fact that those, those are the sort of people I should have been, interviewing, but maybe we have to go wrong. Maybe we have to go the wrong way. And then, and then when you screw up, You look back and you’re like, God, that was wrongheaded.

 

So let me do it a different way.

 

Sean: Yeah, sometimes you gotta go through it to get to it. William, this has been fascinating. You’re one of those people, I told you this multiple times, that you make me go strong, you open up my mind, you help me explore other things and help me uncover more of those deep, eternal truths, that I highlighted with Tolstoy.

 

Your book is incredible. The podcast we brought up multiple times, there are some incredible interviews, so I highly recommend everyone pick that up and go download the podcast. Richer, wiser, happier, anywhere else you wanna direct the listeners.

 

William: I have a website that’s, William Green writes.com. I’m so incompetent about updating it and I’ve never, never figured out how to track anyone who go, goes on it. I don’t collect any information about anything. I’ve never figured out how to do an email list or anything as sophisticated as that.

 

I, I’m a marketer’s nightmare, but I, I’m on Twitter and stuff at William Green, 72 and I do use Twitter to some degree. And, and I’m on LinkedIn and I’m always happy to hear from people and I’m not always brilliant at replying, but I do try to reply cuz I, um, I like the fact that we’re all on this journey together and we’re trying to figure out stuff and I, I think you learn more if you are actually trying to help other people.

 

So, I mean, I think when you are, when you’re trying to, when someone asks you a question and they’re like, what do I do about this? Or something? And, and you, you try to say, well, here’s what’s worked for me and here’s what hasn’t worked and here’s what I’ve read. it forces you to think better about this yourself.

 

 I’ve really enjoyed that dialogue with people who’ve followed me or connected to me or written to me. And so there is that part of me that wants to kind of build my brand and become more successful. And there’s a part of me that knows it’s all bullshit and I just enjoy the fact that we’re, we’re like this community, this tribe of people who are trying to figure out how to live better and how to be happier and how to be better people and how to, what actually constitutes wealth.

 

are we really gonna chase after just money, money, money and possessions, and then look back and be like, really, that that was it. and so I think we’re all kind of wrestling with these questions of how to live. I like it when people connect with me because they’re on that journey and that’s what the podcast is as well.

 

It’s like people just trying to figure out like, how, how do we live what you know, What, what makes sense, what principles will help us? And I, I enjoy the fact that you are very much on that journey as well. And you, you have the, this great characteristic of just being really, really curious and open and, and, you’ve, you’ve had amazing guests and you’re clearly trying to synthesize this material in a way that can help other people.

 

And so I feel like we’re fellow travelers on, on the, on the same kind of path. And so I’m, I’m looking forward to learning more from you as well as, as I hear more of your podcast in the years to come.

 

Sean: Absolutely. Well, thanks again, William.