TRANSCRIPT

Sean: Diana, welcome to what guy are you there, how are you doing today? 

Diana: I am so wonderful and happy to be with you. 

Sean: As you know, I’m so excited to dive into a bit more about you and your work. I would love to know, what are you feeling right now? 

Diana: Hmm, what am I feeling right now? Let me check. I often notice how many people don’t actually check. They’re not like, “Oh, great. Let me check, what am I feeling?” I feel some excitement to be here with you and share these ideas. For some reason, there’s a little wave of sadness in here. I have no idea why, but there’s a little wave of sadness. And yeah, that’s what I’m feeling. 

Sean: Where have you found the value in having people feel their feelings? What they’re actually feeling and contextualizing and putting words behind, what they’re feeling? 

Diana: Oh my goodness. Well, first of all, I wasn’t aware I was sad until I paused. And then just being willing to be with that sadness, I actually kind of felt a little wave go through me. I almost felt it physically through the body. I felt my eyes just well up slightly. And whatever that was, as soon as I acknowledged it and felt it, it moves through. And I’m not contracting back on it. And what I notice is that when people contract back on feelings, it’s really tiring. And so I see a lot of people say, I’m so overwhelmed or I’m burnt out. Those are often descriptions of people who are energetically not feeling their full aliveness. And I find that not allowing feelings to move through the body is one of the key ways people don’t feel their full aliveness. 

Sean:Full aliveness, that is a phrase I love. Can you even go a bit further into what full aliveness means for you? 

Diana: Full aliveness… Full aliveness means I feel a sense of energy, like I feel energized. I feel vital, meaning I feel well. I feel able to respond. I have a respond ability, meaning I can respond to the moment. I’m available to engage with you, with me, with what’s happening just outside of my room. So I’m very present. So full of liveness allows me to be able to respond, be really present, and have a plenty of energy to do whatever the moment is asking of. 

Sean: It’s a beautiful state to be and I’m wondering, what do you do to get there? 

Diana:So many things. Well, it’s one of the key reasons why I wrote the book, the 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership with Jim Dethmer and Kayley because people would ask me that question. And I would say, well, there’s a whole bunch of things I do. 

So one way to feel your full of aliveness is to live a life in which you are the creator rather than in victimhood. And that in and of itself creates a lot of full aliveness. 

Next, are you willing to be curious versus defend yourself righteously?  Because that’s a great way to zap your energy. Bitter feelings. 

Be candid and reveal versus conceal, because concealing actually is another way people really kill off aliveness. 

So we literally went through and we said, 15 commitments, like who writes a book about 15 things? It seems too much, But we really wanted to map the territory and we thought, could we combine this with this and we’re like, no, it’s different. So the 15 Commitments really is a book that maps very specifically how one could live in their full aliveness. 

Sean: It’s one of the books that I put up on that top bookshelf of mine. The long-time listeners know the impact that your work has had on me and we have had on Jim Dethmer the past episode 257. So it’s a book I highly recommend. I’ll have that linked up here in the show notes. 

But I’m wondering for you, I mean, you’re navigating the complexities of day-to-day life, like managing business, you’ve got family relationships. How do you get yourself to a better state when the situation requires it and you’re not there? Right, like at the beginning of this, you said I’m feeling some sadness. What happens when you’re really feeling down but the situation requires the better version of Diana shows up?

Diana: Well, I guess I might argue that the better version of Diana isn’t always like the upbeat vital one. The better version of Diana is the, in my mind, is the authentic version of Diana. 

Sean: There we go. 

Diana:So I might start a conversation with somebody saying, “Hey, I want to let you know I’m feeling a little tired right now.” And I just am acknowledging that I was up late last night. Actually this happened recently where I was facilitating a group of global government leaders. And I came in and I said, “Hey, I want to let you know. I’m pretty tired this morning.” And so you might notice some tiredness is here as I’m facilitating. And I just decided like, I don’t want to try to put something on top of tired because that’s actually more tiring to try not to be tiring is exhausting. So what happened was, just when I let whatever is here be as it is, it starts to automatically shift and change and then my energy starts rolling and it starts coming into a place that can meet the moment. 

But I don’t know. I never think of it that way like I’ve got to overcome something. It’s not the way I organize myself, I guess. 

Sean: You found a lot of the leaders you work with though feel they need to put on and let’s just call that a fake facade for the moment. 

Diana: Yeah, and I coach them out of it. 

So I coach them and say like, Hey, yeah, COVID’s here. Talk about how scared you are. Talk about how sad you are. Like encourage others to be sad and scared too. We want to welcome the intelligence of emotions. They’re so wise. 

So every time I do this, leaders are reliably nervous. Like, God, what are people going to think though? And also like, wait, shouldn’t I be pushing them up right now? I said, pushing up is great. But after you’ve let them feel all these other feelings, don’t push up and try to ignore them because that’s just not going to work. And so they will lie, they come back and say that what I coach them on to be able to support them in revealing and let others reveal reliably has been successful. Like 100% of the time, I’ve never had anybody say that didn’t work well. 

Sean: Can you walk us through that journey a bit more in terms of feeling the feelings and then how the leader comes out of that? 

Diana: Yeah. So, let me use an example. ‘Hey guys, we thought we’d have more users for our platform by now. In third quarter here, we don’t have them. I’m frustrated. I feel I feel some anger, I feel I’m scared. And, and, and, and truthfully, I feel some disappointment about, not meeting our expectations, expected goals. So I just want to reveal all that right now. And I imagine you all have some feelings about that too. Anybody want to share? And then people like, yeah, I’m frustrated too. And then leader goes, that makes sense. I’m sad. I really hoped we would get, you know, more users. I’m so excited about our platform. I understand. So we just make room for all those feelings to come out. And then once they’ve made room, then then leader can say, Okay, you guys, I really appreciate all of us being real about that. I’m excited about the challenge of seeing what can we learn about how we got here and do something different in the future. And I believe we have that capacity to do that.’ 

So then they can bring in a, you know, I know there’s a possibility here and that can be a “yes AND’ which is how I like to live life. Yes, I’m frustrated and there’s going to be a way to learn something here AND get some better results. I better means more users. And maybe better means we’re off track. And so the results are going to help us learn that we need to pivot and offer different benefits in our platform that people really want to use. 

Sean: What I like about this, Diana, is what you were mentioning a few minutes ago around that energy. We go into one of those meetings. We don’t voice what we’re actually feeling. And it’s like that crunched up hose, where it’s just like, “Oh, I’m feeling all this. Now it’s draining me the rest of the day.” it opens up that floodgate of that hose and allows you to get those out. I just think that’s crucial. 

There was a phrase you said a minute ago. I just wanted to dive a bit deeper on. You were saying how emotions can be wise. I love it if you expand on the wisdom of emotions. 

Diana: Yeah. Anger is such a gift. It’s like a best friend that goes, “Hey, man, something here needs to change. Something needs to evolve. Something here is not serving you or your people. Pay attention. Make the change”. 

So one thing I’ve done is I’ve facilitated a group and maybe we’re virtual and I say, okay, everybody, I know how frustrated you are. Go ahead and mute. Everybody stand up and you get one minute. I’m going to keep, and everybody gets to have a temper tantrum. You get to stop, yell, scream, punch in the air, whatever you want to do to let yourself move all that anger through. And then they come back and they sit down, and I go, gosh, I feel so much more grounded, open, curious, like all that was being held back. And so I say, yeah, now let’s listen. What’s your anger saying? And then we actually tap now that they’ve got to move it through. 

Now I say, okay, what do you think anger is saying about what’s not working for you or your people? And then I start gathering their wisdom. And then we learn so many things from that anger. 

Sadness says, “Hey, there was a loss that we need to acknowledge. There’s so much sadness we’re reliably feeling. I don’t know about you, but I always have expectations for the way I hope the world could be or the way I hope situations could be.” And I’m often disappointed and sad about the loss of a pretty picture I have that isn’t going to be here. Can I let go of my imaginational story about the way the world would be? Can I let that go so then I go okay? This is the way it is so now how do I want to be with it knowing this is how the situation is? Because if people are still holding on to their pretty picture It’s not gonna work very well for how they are gonna create now and then fear is this wise friend that goes ‘hey PS, pay attention. There’s something you don’t know right now that you’ve got to learn. Fear goes, you’ve got to pay attention. 

So even as simple as walking down a trail here and the redwoods where I go and there’s a creek and there’s a log that I have to cross. Fear’s going to come in and go, you can’t, you got to learn something about how you’re going to balance yourself differently on this log than you did on the trail. Pay attention. So I go, ‘I Welcome fear. Thank you fear’. Same thing when we’re learning to drive a car. Hey, you don’t know about how to pay attention to all these mirrors and the gas and the brake and all the stuff all at once. I’m here as a fear to help you learn until you got it. And then, you know, at some point we all go, I got this. And then fear goes, great, I’m gone. See ya. So fear is like a best friend going ‘I’m just hanging with you to keep you awake until you don’t need me anymore.’

Sean: Something you said a second ago is around the stories we’re constantly telling and creating in our own minds here. What do you do as a coach to get people to see their story and be able to step back from them for a minute? So they could actually look at the truth here?

Diana: So great, yeah, so I do a practice called Fact and Story. And so we’ll say, what are the facts? And the facts are what camera’s record. So right now the camera records you and I talking, that’s what the camera records. The camera records you have a certain hair color, but the story of your hair color is a story because I might say your hair looks dirty blonde and somebody else might say, “No, his hair is light brown.” Somebody else might say, “No, it looks pretty dark brown.” I mean, everybody’s gonna have their subjective experience. So any kinds of adverbs, adjectives, this podcast is interesting, that’s a story. It’s not true. There’s no fact that says this is interesting. The fact is, two people are talking, and then everything pretty much after two people are talking is a story. And so what I ask people to do is, pay attention to how they wanna make their stories, facts, and recognize their story is arguable, it’s subjective, and when you question it, especially stories that upset you, when you question those stories that upset you and start to recognize they’re not necessarily true, it creates a lot more presence, well-being, a lot less reactivity. 

Sean: I’m trying to think when someone is just constantly not able to shake themselves out of their negative story/  Like I’m saying this because I feel like there’s a lot of people that feel very stuck right now. And almost like they’re sleepwalking through life. And I’m wondering what you would do with someone like that just to kind of shake up their story. 

Diana: Well, first of all, I’d go, oh, ‘let’s take a look at how you’re committed to sleep walking through life’. And they’d say, well, I’m not committed to it. And I would say, the survey says you are. How do we know? Because that’s what you’re complaining about. So whatever you’re complaining about, some part of you is committed to creating. And we say there’s conscious commitment. So those are the things I go, yeah, I want to be in a loving marriage. Or I want to have work that really is dynamic for me. And if that’s the case, then those are my conscious commitments. But if let’s just say I want to have a colleague who’s not performing or I have a colleague who’s not performing, I didn’t wake up this morning and say, “Hot, damn, another day to have my colleague not performing well.” But if that’s what’s happening, then I’m unconsciously committed to making that happen. I have a part to play. Now, others also have parts to play as well as that person, but I have some part to play in that and let me wake up to how I’m creating that result. 

So first thing I would do is, somebody says, “I feel like I’m sleepwalking.” I go, “Great, I hear you’re committed to sleepwalking and you haven’t been consciously doing that, but let’s start to have you own.” Oh, I’m unconsciously committed to sleepwalking through my life. And then I’d go teach me a class if I want to sleepwalk in my life too. And I want to sleepwalk just like you are and I wanna create it just like you’re creating it. What would you tell me to do? And at first people will go, what do you mean? I go, yeah, I want you to teach me how to create the thing you’re complaining about. So they go, okay, well, first of all, believe that you have to live in a lot of obligation. Great, okay, what else should I do? Have thoughts of scarcity around how you can make money, that you can only do it one way and not any other way. Okay, what else should I do? And then they start rattling off some of these things and then they start to realize, oh, I am organizing myself to sleep walk through life. And then the good news is once you can see how you’re creating something that you don’t want, you can now see how to create it differently. And pretty much all you do is the opposite. 

Sean: So the meta theme there is basically having them become aware of the role they’re playing in that. Is that what you’re doing with those questions? 

Diana: Exactly. Same thing like, you know, right now I’m 10 pounds over the weight I wanna be. My, I actually can’t fit into quite a few of my pants right now, right? So I would say I’m unconsciously committed to not fitting into my pants. How do I know? ‘Cause I’m not fitting into them. And then if you two don’t wanna fit into your pants, let me tell you what to do. I can teach you a course on how I’ve been creating this. I know exactly how I’m doing it. And then the good news is I write out the course, I go to the opposite, I can start to fit into my pants.

Sean: It’s very thought provoking and eye opening for so many people. You can just, I’m sure a lot of people are doing this experiment and their head right now is, oh, okay, I’m catching myself right there. One of the things I’m really intrigued by though is just people being uncomfortable with being uncomfortable and kind of that whole fear of the unknown. And I would love to just explore this topic with you. So how do you work with people who need to get more comfortable with the unknown or the uncomfortable? 

Diana: The key thing is, can you let it be okay to be scared? Can you welcome fear? Because anytime any of us are in the unknown, fear automatically is going to kick in as an intelligence that goes, “Hey man, there’s something you don’t know here, right?” It’s automatically going to show up. And so if you’re not comfortable with feeling that swirl in your belly, your butterflies, or a little pit in the stomach, or whatever, your version of feeling fear in the body. It’s a somatic experience. 

If you’re not willing to be with that somatic experience, then it’s going to be hard to go into the unknown. If you’re not willing to be with that somatic experience of fear, you’re not going to be willing to change as easily. 

So a lot of what I do is can you just welcome, yeah, there’s the swirl in my belly and can you not make that good, bad, right, wrong? Or can you not even make it comfortable or uncomfortable? Can you actually start to describe it like a scientist? And imagine there’s just a bunch of bits in your belly. What are the bits doing? Are they swirling? Are they pulsing? Are they clenching? What are they doing? And if you couldn’t make any of those qualities good or bad, and just be with them, and that’s what I see is that a lot of us have started to put labels on sensations as that’s comfortable or uncomfortable. But really, if you can get it out of your mind that there’s comfortable or uncomfortable and there’s just sensation, you can teach your body to be way more available to more sensation. 

Sean: Is that almost one of the hardest things you have to do is get people to reshape that story they’ve created around the emotion? 

Diana: Yeah, well, just to reshape the ideas of good, bad, right or wrong thinking. Because it’s like, oh, comfortable is good, uncomfortable is bad or I’m right, this is comfortable because comfortable is, again, for most people, it’s subjective. That’s a story they tell themselves. So what if you could find this comfortable? What if, feeling that nervous belly is actually exciting? What if that could start to feel good as much as it could feel uncomfortable? 

Sean: Yeah. I like that. You’ve worked with thousands of people at this point. How many people have you found who are actually willing to change? We hear a lot of people say they really want to. How many people who approach you actually are really willing to change? 

Diana: Well, we say that from my direct experience, when I work with a group of people, and they say, “Here’s an issue I wanna change, a relationship issue,” for example. Now granted many of them are picking meaningful relationship issues and that might have real consequences if there was to be a threat to them. But when I asked those people to pick a relationship issue that’s meaningful to them, 80% of them will NOT be willing in the end of the program to shift their issue with that person. 

Sean: 20% will? With all of your years of experience, why is that the case? 

Diana: Because it’s a threat to either their security, their control, or their approval. And if they’re sourcing security control and approval outside, which many of us do, they’ll feel threatened and therefore not put at risk, whatever needs to be put at risk to create the change. 

So if people can learn how to be the source, like, would you be willing to be the source of all the approval you have ever wanted. Would you be willing to be the source of it yourself, right? If people would be willing to be the source, then if you end up not liking me, that would certainly might be painful. I’m disappointed. I might feel sad about that, but I’m okay because I’m approving of me. If you don’t have that, then you’re gonna run around in the world threatened And then therefore not willing to sometimes make the changes that are required for a relationship to shift. 

Sean: How much of that do you think is hardwired? Sourcing approval from within? Were you able to source approval from within from a young age? And I’m obviously taking leaps here assuming that you do that now. 

Diana: That’s a great question. I think maybe some personalities may find it easier to self-approve. But I think it’s also true that everybody at the end could equally self-approve. But some personalities might find it a little easier. 

Sean: What personality types have you seen are more willing to be that 20% who actually do change? 

Diana: Oh, I wouldn’t say that 20% is necessarily a personality type ’cause here’s the other thing. I might be more willing to approve of myself, but I might be more threatened to source control from within. And so I would say ’cause it’s approval control and security and everybody’s got one of those that particularly kicks up. So I wouldn’t, just because I might go, yeah, I might change more likely, or I might be more willing to approve of myself, I may have security issues in which now that keeps me from changing my relationship issue. So everybody’s got something. So I wouldn’t say it’s personality-related or why people choose not to be willing to shift. 

Sean: It’s what makes your work fun! For you is it control? 

Diana: Yes. 

Sean: Right here as well.. So, let me take advantage of this. So then what should I be doing or thinking about, knowing control is my major thing? 

Diana: Well, first of all, would you be willing to recognize that you have all the control you want to create the well-being and the peace and the joy and whatever else you’re seeking out there that you have control of that inside of you? 

Sean: Yes. 

Diana: So then you say, “Okay, I’m willing.” So then, great, how are you going to create the control of those experiences that you’re longing for? How do you do that inside of yourself regardless of what’s happening around you? 

Sean: And so it’s like being in the eye of a storm in a hurricane. The hurricane can be swirling, but I’m in a centered space here regardless. What do I need to do to cultivate that in me? So I don’t have to create the world in a certain way I’m attached to to get that experience. 

One of the things you did was the first thing you asked is am I willing to take responsibility. And I know that’s the  number one commitment of the 15 Commitments. Can you dive a bit further on what you call radical responsibility? 

Diana: Yeah, radical meaning at the core, right? So at the core means I’m not in victimhood here. I’m not at the effect of. I am the creator, I can create it the way I want it. Now, there may be circumstances that make that much more challenging. Some of us have circumstances that are far different than others. And we all can learn how we can source a sense of centeredness inside of ourselves as we’re moving around in challenging times. 

Sean: Back to control and being in the center of the eye of the storm. 

Diana: Yes.

Sean: I love that. What do you find the most challenging with taking radical responsibility during times of let’s call them chaos where that storm is really going? 

Diana: Well, first of all, again, I come back to things like it’s okay to be scared. It’s okay to have your feelings. That’s a really important one. Like you’re scared. You’re threatened. You’re triggered. You’re reactive. Welcome triggered one. Welcome, reactive one. No problem. Of course you’re scared. So giving space for that part of ourselves that is reactive to be here is a really important first step once we do recognize we’re reactive. 

Sean: Can you even expand on spaciousness? I would love to know how space plays a role in your life. 

Diana: Okay, so here’s how I do it. I actually, you know, throughout my day, I’m going to get reactive. And so I catch myself, ‘hey, scared one, come sit on my lap’. And I imagine like a little, yeah, I am, yeah, and like a compassionate, like a mothering quality to myself, like, oh, ‘hi scared part, comes over to my lap. You’re welcome here.’ And so I literally envision a little part of myself sitting on my lap, kind of on my big self-lap. I just go, come, come, hang, let’s be together. And I’m not trying to get you to calm down. I’m just welcoming you being as reactive as you are. I want to make room. I want to breathe. I want to use my breath to breathe open space for you to be reactive. So I’m giving myself some loving attention and to, I would actually argue, I’m giving myself acceptance to be the way I am because in our work we say, you cannot shift that which you cannot accept. 

So I see a lot of people don’t want to accept their scared parts. They’re like, no, you’re not supposed to be scared. Come on. Let’s push through. And that won’t work. It’s not going to happen because there’s that resistance to our part of ourselves that’s threatened will cause that part to continue to stay reactive. 

Sean: What have you done over the years to get to a level where acceptance becomes more natural for you? 

Diana: Practice, practice, practice. 

Sean: Always goes back to that, doesn’t it? 

Diana: Always practice. So first of all, I have to pay attention to just even noticing. Can I notice that I’m triggered? So for years, I had on my phone a little note. I still have an app on there. It says Diana. Check and see, are you triggered or reactive right now? And it pops on my phone. I used to have it pop on my phone seven days or seven times a day randomly. now I think it pops on a couple of times. But it just asks me to check. So first of all, it asks me to pause wherever my day is and just go, where are you? Are you triggered or reactive? 

So I just left a comment for some of my colleagues and I was like, hey, I’m triggered. I know I’m triggered. So I can now catch it moment to moment because I’ve been looking for it for so many years. So first of all, can I notice? And then the second one is, can I accept, and basically that comes down to like, an understanding of why myself and other human beings get threatened. Because we’re sourcing approval control and security outside of ourselves, we get scared. And that’s just so, it’s as normal as breathing. And I say, “I’m a meat sack, ultimately.” You know, it’s not true. I’m actually ultimately all kinds of things, not just a meat sack. But I am in a meat sack, and this meat sack gets reactive, and I don’t want to argue with that anymore. It’s just biologically wired to get reactive. So what? Let’s get reactive. It doesn’t matter and accept it. And then can we pause and see are we willing to shift? So this is one of the reasons why myself and my colleagues ask our clients to meditate, because meditation is simply the practice of can you notice and can you allow? Oh, there’s a thought. Can I just allow the thought? Oh, there’s this. Can I just allow it? 

So notice and allow is my practice over and over again so that my whole life becomes a living meditation of notice and allow. 

Sean: How long did it take to get to that place where you’re feeling that life is a living meditation? I would say, it was a choice. Am I willing to choose this as a life? When did you make that choice? 

Diana: Oh my goodness. I’ve been practicing this for 25 years now, and I just get better and better at it. It’s a never ending ceiling for how good I can get. And again, it’s just like, in my opinion, taking care of your muscles. If you want good, strong firm muscles, you’ve got to go to the gym regularly. And if you think you can beef up at one point and then you’ve got it, it’s not going to happen. Regular care to keep that strengthened. 

It’s the same thing with your consciousness. So I’m at the gym every day in my consciousness. 

Sean: I want to highlight this. You still focus on some of these small fundamental practices. I want to highlight this because one of the things I love about Steph Curry, the basketball player, when he gets on the court, the first thing he does every single time is he goes to the free or he goes for a layup every single time. So he works directly underneath the basket. I recently had on a good friend of mine who’s a former Navy SEAL and one of his 20-year commanders when he went out in the gun range, 20 years in, he’s fired over a million bullets. The first thing he does, he puts one bullet in the chamber, does his peripheral scans, takes one shot, sets it down. A million plus shots and he’s working on the fundamentals just like you, who are 25 years into that. 

I want to highlight that because so early on we want to say, oh no, I don’t need to do this work anymore. The work never stops and I love that Diana. 

Above the Line, Below the Line

One of the most helpful, I would say frameworks I’ve ever learned from you is above the line below the line. And I just have to bring this up. I would love for you to expand on what that framework is and how we use it. 

Diana :Okay, let me see if I can even just speak from the two places. So I’m going to speak from above a line and from above a line, I just want to learn. Here I am recording a podcast with you. I want to learn how I can be more effective in getting my ideas across? How can I meet the audience’s needs? How do I, like I’m thinking of, how do I make this even a better visual experience? I just wanna learn. I’m not interested in trying to control anything from a reactive place. Now I might wanna control my lighting or something like that from above a line, but I’m just more interested in learning and trying to prove I’m right. I’m open, I’m open-minded, I’m open-hearted, I’m open in my body, my breath is open. Ah, there’s a sense of, and I could be scared while I’m open. I could be frustrated when I’m open, but I’m in this place of curiosity, I want to learn. I’ll shift. Okay, now if I’m below the line, it’s like, oh shoot, am I okay? Is this all right? I’m defending, you know, my mind is gonna wanna be right about the way I gotta be here. And then if I don’t do it right, there’s a problem. And I’m gonna, I could get into this kind of like, my breath is getting more shallow. I’m a little more of a, in a threatened state here from below line. And this is pretty normal that we do this down here, but it’s like, oh gosh, are they all gonna like me? Am I acceptable? What if nobody wants to me to be on their podcast. Oh no, maybe life won’t be okay anymore. problem problem problem is the way I’m looking at the world. I tend to want to defend myself down here. I close up my heart and close my head can close my breath can close so all this reactivity is what happens when I go below the line. 

So we’re all bouncing around above and below above and below constantly and even in this podcast I can see myself go above go below go above. So it’s not the goal is not to stay above the line all the time because I don’t think that’s possible. The goal is to notice that you go below the line, accept yourself and then see if you’re willing to shift. 

So I like the metaphor of we’re gonna fall off a horse. It doesn’t matter how often you fall off but  it’s how fast you can get back on? 

Sean: You’re pretty pretty fast aren’t you? 

Diana: Yeah, exactly. I feel like a cowgirl is like my foot so to touch the ground and I can bring it back up pretty fast now. Whereas before I used to just get bucked off and flat on the ground and then beat myself up for like, why did you fall down? Which is a complete waste of time and then, you know, just make it wrong that I fell off and I spent a couple of years trying to like control ever falling off the horse metaphorically and it never worked. So now I’ve learned like I’m just a human being who’s going to have its reactivity. Don’t make that a problem.

Sean: Walk me through the final months of that multi-year journey for you trying to control it. What finally was like the breaking where you’re just like, all right, you know what the approach I have here clearly is not working? 

Diana: Well, what I’ve learned is that our minds like to categorize things when we’re learning things and we tend to want to categorize to motivate ourselves to learn. So what I realized I did and what a lot of people do is when I learned the model of above and below the line, I made up a story that below the line was bad and above the line was good. And so then what happened was I started to judge myself anytime I went below the line and that lasted for many years. But the high side of it was, it’s what got the motivation going for me to want to learn the model and try these different tools on because my mind wanted to make, it wanted to categorize it as this not as good. At some point, I woke back up to, hey, wait a minute, it’s not good or bad to be above or below line, it just is. It just is. And once I let that be just in is and dropped good, bad, right, wrong, then the whole thing kind of opened up for me and I got way more willing to fall off my horse as often as I did. 

The Change Formula

Sean: One of the things you were bringing up there, it sounds like you were pushing away from something and kind of also being drawn towards, oh, there’s a better future here. I’m just wondering how you think about that toggle, either like being so drawn and compelled towards a vision you’re working towards, or basically just being so fed up with the way things have been going. Are those kind of the two drivers you see? 

Diana: Yeah. In order for people I see to be motivated to change anything meaningful in their lives, They have to activate what we call the change formula, which is some combination of vision and dissatisfaction or vision and discomfort if you want to call it discomfort. There has to be, for some of us, it could just be all vision. I just have a vision for something beautiful. I want to create it and that’s what motivates and drives me. But most humans do not move from vision. Most humans move from discomfort. I’m uncomfortable. This doesn’t feel good and that motivates me to change. 

So for example, I wasn’t motivated to change my diet habits until I had the discomfort of a pant waist that was too tight. Now my discomfort is motivating me because the truth is, I don’t have a lot of vision around, like some ideal shape or size of my body. It’s not that interesting to me, but my discomfort is very motivating. So some vision discomfort is the combination that gets people to change. And so when people say I really want a relationship to change or a situation to change, if they’re not uncomfortable enough and they don’t have a great vision, I’m not betting on that change. 

Sean:Hmm. What about the select few where they’re solely driven by vision? Are there any patterns that you’ve seen there that just you, I know you find a lot of interesting things that kind of just peak your interest that, huh, there’s this select few who clearly are just driven by vision here. 

Diana: I actually think everybody can be moved by vision. I think it’s possible for everybody equally. It’s just that I see people get lazy. We don’t have a lot of cultural rituals that invite people to get into states of visioning. So I find that people are often very lazy about that. But when you do drive them, and honestly, I think a lot of vision has to do with how good is one willing to feel, and that might be somatically. I also think vision has to do a lot with how comfortable you are with sexual energy, because when you’re really turned on by a vision, it feels sexual. It’s like, you know, yeah, I want it. And if you’re not willing to have those that body feel good, it’s not you’re not going to be as driven, I think, or find it is easy to visualize beautiful possibilities that are motivating. 

Sean:Could you even go further on? You said states of visioning. When you say states of vision, What do you have in mind there? What does that look like? 

Diana: So first of all, what can you, I want everybody to think of themselves like we’re all movie director or movie writers, producers, directors. So there’s a movie that could be your life that you could live out. Do you, do you have a rotten tomatoes, 100% score for a beautiful scene you would like to live out in the future? What would that be? that you would sit there and eat your popcorn and watch your own movie going, this is awesome. I love this movie. So what is that? 

And giving people an invitation to start to dream that up. And so that can start with a visual in the mind. But then it can go to a whole somatic, what would it feel like if you were in that scene? What would it smell like, taste like? What would it feel like energetically so that people start to have, What would it feel like emotionally? Like open them up so that there are states of visioning that are engaging all three of your centers, IQ, EQ, and BQ, body intelligence. And I find that when people activate all three centers when they’re visioning, it’s way more successful in creating that thing and coming into fruition. 

Sean: Yeah, if you take the same approach in terms of sports visualization or however you wanna use visualization as well. Should it be a different space when you’re tapping into those? Tell me when you started to get interested in somatic awareness and body intelligence. 

Diana:Well, I studied with Gay and Kathleen Hendricks of the Hendricks Institute, 25 years ago in 1997, so it’s been a while. Is when I first got introduced to their work and they were the ones who really brought me into the body and to how valuable somatic intelligence is and also how valuable using somatics to express and vision are so valuable and important. And so that’s where my whole life really changed ’cause I think I lived in a world which most of us do in which IQ was the big thing we all put our attention on, maybe a little EQ. But body intelligence was not something in somatic experiencing was not something that I ever learned in school. And so once that came online, I felt like I got really integrated. 

Sean: Do you have any recommendations on early introductions or things people could just start doing even to kind of peak their curiosity there with somatic? 

Diana: Well, I just think starting with breath is a really wonderful place to start. Just can you pay attention to your breath? There’s so much you can learn about how your breath is just like your life. But I used to take a weekend event actually all on breathing just for that, like how is your life like your breath? So yeah, it’s just starting with breath. Starting just to notice, imagining that your body is just a bunch of bits. What are the bits doing? Are you aware of it? Like do you notice what’s happening in your back and on the tip of your nose and around your ears and most people aren’t bringing their attention to all these parts of the body. What’s it like on the bottom of your feet and your armpits? We’re just not used to paying attention in those ways, but when you do, you start recognizing wow, there’s a lot going on. 

Sean: with your work you’ve done a tremendous amount of self-awareness to understand yourself better. What have you found extremely valuable being able to look back over the last 25 years and saying, “You know what, if I was starting again, I would still use this tool or I’d still do this to develop better self-awareness?” 

Diana: I think one of the things I learned with the Hendricks Institute was this concept of having personas, personas being like parts, little parts of ourselves. Maybe you could like a call it like a mask that we wear that gets us goodies in the world and that we all are made up of hundreds of personas. When I got introduced that tool, I found it really valuable to interview these parts in myself, learn more about them, what are their gifts, where do they where they get scared, who did I learn that style from, what are their and so in learning about these parts and learning how to accept every one of them is like, is a way I brought myself into so much self acceptance and that helps a lot in my ability to be self-aware and conscious and I say like my hope is that everybody will make space at the table for every part of them. And so, and if I couldn’t find a way to accept that part of myself, I would exaggerate it until it got funny until I could find like, oh, and then if I was playful state with it and then always I could find something valuable. Including like I have a part that’s a mean bitch, you know, and I exaggerated out my mean bitch and got to play with her and I realized, you know, my mean bitch isn’t helpful when I’m trying to like get people to help me clean the kitchen. But my mean bitch would be perfect in a dark alley. Like you don’t want to mess with me. And so I don’t ever want to get rid of my mean bitch. I just want to make sure she shows up for the scene that is perfectly situated for her great gifts. 

Zone of Genius

Sean: Interesting. This makes me think about a concept you talk about and that zone of genius. Can you go a bit further here? ‘Cause I feel like this is pretty aligned with zone of genius. So what exactly is zone of genius? 

Diana: Well, zone of genius is that thing that you do, that when you do it, it’s like time and space can go away. It’s something you were innately good at, even when you were young, you would do it even if you didn’t get paid. And it creates energy when you do it. Like you feel alive and you feel as alive as you did when you started it, even if you put out quite a bit of effort. And so zones of genius can be related to personas because if there are key personas that have been used to take care of myself, they might have had gifts early on. And also maybe zones of genius can play themselves out through certain personas. I can imagine that. So one of my zone of genius is I can tune in and feel what other people are feeling with great accuracy. And I can even almost feel what they’re feeling in their bodies. 

Sean: And you had this from a young age too, right? 

Diana: Always when I was little too. Yeah. It’s like, you know, simple. I thought everybody does it.  Everybody does this and why don’t people tune in to me the way I can tune in to other people. So there’s a consequence to that. Like I had to actually learn how to start to turn that off because. I had to learn how to not have it be so available because otherwise I was feeling everybody and then I was like tuning in to everybody and that really wasn’t helpful. So I did have some mentors help me learn how to like flip the switch and not have it on all the time. But I don’t see it as like causing – Shadow often can cause a reactivity in oneself and in others. And so I don’t necessarily see my zone of genius, that’s one of my zone of geniuses is causing like a reactivity necessarily in others when I’m in it. 

Sean: What do you think prevents us from living more in our zone of genius? 

Diana: Limited thinking, particularly I don’t know how I’m gonna make a living doing what I’m good at. go further here. 

Sean: I know a lot of people’s ears just perked up with this. 

Diana: Well, you know, like I had this guy who was a client, he was a professional golfer, and he was pretty good. He was making a living at it. But he said, you know, I’m good at golfing, but if I’m honest, I don’t love it. Like, I, you know, my parents encouraged me to be a golfer because I was good, but time and space do not go away when I’m playing golf, even though I’m quite talented at it. I’m like, well, where does time and space go away? Because I love painting. But I can’t make a living painting. And I was like, well, I think there’s got to be a way you could make a living painting. And we really looked at all of the limited thinking that he had around that. And and he had lots of examples of lots of painters who didn’t make a living. So we had to help him overcome it just because that’s true for some people. And maybe even it has been for many doesn’t mean it has to be true for you. And now he is a full-time painter in Florida. And that’s, he makes a full living doing underwater paintings. And he’s really happy. It’s like really one of his great, you know, joys now is to live this life doing his own of genius. 

Sean: This has me thinking about when people are in that zone of genius, how do they even become aware? That’s the space they’re in, right? Like you said, you were aware of yours from a very young age. 

Diana: Well actually, I wasn’t aware that that was a zone of genius. I thought everybody did that. I think actually most people are not aware of their zone of genius because it’s like telling a fish, your great swimmer and the fish says, “What are you talking about? I’ve just been me.” So zone of genius needs the help of a community around you to show what your gifts are. And then for you to go, “Oh really, that’s unique to me. I didn’t know.” Zones of excellence, everybody knows their zones of excellence because they know I got good at it. I went to school. I have experience. I’ve built a skill level around it and they can all point to zones of excellence. But zones of genius seem hidden for a lot of us. And so when we have community around us is one way we learn about it. 

The Best Stuff Exercise 

The other way we learn about it is that I have an exercise I do regularly with my clients called the Best Stuff Exercise in which they come and find their eight favorite memories of their whole life in which two things occurred. whatever they were doing, they really had fun. And fun doesn’t have to be “ha ha fun.” It could be like, “I was responsible for people being pulled up a mountain on police.” You know? And it was my job to lead. It was edgy. I wasn’t “ha ha fun,” but it was fun, right? For me. So it was fun. And then whatever you did, you felt like you did a really good job. Like people would say this was above par for the quality that you provided. So when you combine those two things and you go back and look anywhere in your life and come up with those eight memories, most people will find that at least six to eight of those memories are going to have the same thread of the same quality that was the zone of genius. And then follow that up with an email campaign that I have my clients do where they go reach out to people and ask them to answer a few specific questions that usually always comes back and validates what they already found in their eight memories, then it’s really difficult not to be able to see your zone of genius. 

Sean: This is incredible. The tools and resources you’re providing around so many things, especially around self-awareness here, are you still using the enneagram a lot? 

Diana: All the time. I don’t work with anybody anymore without typing them. 

Sean: Okay, so that’s a powerful statement. You won’t work with anyone. Please just enlighten me here around the power of the Enneagram. 

Diana: Well, I believe the Enneagram is probably one of the most valuable personal development tools anywhere on the globe. And it is currently one of the fastest growing or if not one of the fastest growing personal development tool worldwide. It is a tool that basically points to what causes people to get reactive and triggered in ways that keep them from being able to be their more, you know, their full present conscious selves. So it is not like all the other personality tools out there. It’s not looking at who you are, it’s looking at what motivates you, what drives you, what lens are you looking at that has you have a certain interpretation or drive into to do certain things. And that is really helpful in catching people’s reactive patterns. So I want to know what their type is because it tells me so I, it’s like I could spend a year with them or I could get an any gram typing in an afternoon and learn this, you know, all about all the things that are going to help me know how best to support them. 

Sean: Are you an eight? 

Diana: I am an eight as well. 

Sean: So I’m an eight as well. It takes one of those, right? (laughing) 

Diana: That’s right. 

Sean: So if someone has the enneagram what could be just an early step for them to take just to analyze it and just to explore themselves a bit further? Are there any early things that people should do with it? 

Diana: Well, I think people should know that most online tests are not accurate. So just because they’re not, they’re definitely not accurate. all of them are not 100% accurate. And that’s one of the limitations of enneagram because there’s a nuance there to figure out what your type is. So I’d say first of all, if you really wanna get an accurate reading, it’s helpful to work with a certified typer who does an interview with you to help you understand what your type is. But if you don’t wanna have, take the timer expense for that, then you could use one of these online assessments, but recognize it’s a pointer, it’s not necessarily accurate. So then you’ve got to go investigate and there’s some great websites out there that describe the types in great detail that you can try on. You can also get some feedback from people who know you really well what type you might be based on the descriptions. And then there’s a wonderful thing called the Ennea Thought a Day that you can sign up for at the Enneagram Institute website. And you can get the thought, you can send it for two at a time. So if you think you’re maybe one of a couple of types, you can have both of them sent to you the little messages every day. And within 30 days you’ll know, oh wait, I know I’m not, type in not this one. It’ll be pretty obvious. If people say they think that they’re like, I don’t know any enneagram, it doesn’t really work for me. My guess is they’re mistyped. Because I’ve had people say that many times and then when they get accurate typed, it’s like, oh, okay, all right, now everything’s making sense. 

Sean: You mentioned that question of the day, and then you mentioned earlier that on your phone, things would pop up. Are there any non-negotiables you have throughout the day? 

Diana: You mean like a practice as I do? 

Sean: Yeah. Anything that comes to mind like that? 

Diana: Okay. When I wake up in the morning, one of the very first things I do is this, (mimics clicking) And the mindset is, I’m so grateful to be able to play Diana. I’m so grateful to have this experience of reality through Diana. And I just love my character. She’s great. And the idea of, I’m great. She’s great. But I say she, because I like to wake up the part of me that is not Diana. There is one who is here that is Diana, for me, in my world. And there is one who is consciousness, who is playing a character named Diana. And so I really like to think of myself as the consciousness that wakes up and goes, “Mmm, isn’t it fun to be Diana?” So that’s how I start my day. And that wakes me up to my connection to something greater than my identity. 

Sean: That’s awesome. You mentioned that’s a mindset you have. What other mindsets have just been incredibly, positively influential for your life? 

Diana: I love the mindset of ‘how is whatever happening for me?’. And especially as a type eight, the snake in our head says, you know, watch out the world’s a dangerous place. They’re going to hurt you. They’re going to betray you. They’re going to, you know, they’re going to take you down. And so learning that the world is a friendly place through the mindset of how is everyone and everything here for me is heaven to me. I learned so much. And I feel I get to enjoy a really nurturing and supportive world just the way it is. 

Sean: One of the most helpful things from your book is viewing everyone as an ally. Yeah. So that’s been incredible. I talked with Jim on episode 257 a lot about that. Another mindset that you posted on Twitter, actually, when I hear you expand on is just ‘no hurry, no pause’. Can you expand on what you mean by this? 

Diana: Well, when one is wanting to create in the world, I got this actually from, there’s a kind of body workout there called Breema that was created by an Enneagram 8. But I like this mindset because I can get pushy and so can a lot of other types that are in leading companies. They can want to rush, they can want to go, come on, bigger, better, faster, stronger. So no hurry is like, let’s just don’t push. But then no pause either because the mindset of like, you don’t want to like pass out and have to stop because you’re not sustainable. So what’s it like to just have that nice, easy flow in there? No hurry, no pause. We’re going along able to create very sustainably. 

Sean: I love that. Very helpful for me. I’m wondering for you, you mentioned some certain pivot points, when did you feel that you were just fully in line with your purpose and what you’re uniquely very talented and skilled at. Like when did this start to feel like wearing a glove that fit perfectly for you? 

Diana:At the age of 40, I hired a coach to help me define and embody what my life purpose, vision, and mission were. And that was a very good investment for me. And I spent weeks refining every word. and it was all very particular and a long time really putting out like the biggest version of my mission, which is a vision for me, what that could look like and then had some images, physical pictures and things that represented that that I would look at regularly just to keep my attention on it. And so I would say 40 was the year I did that I’m now 56, so 16 years ago. And that made all the difference in my ability to direct my life in ways that give me a lot of meaning and help me feel as if I’m very much of service to others. 

Sean: Diana, let’s say over the last 16 years you’ve cultivated a level of mastery towards that purpose. Can we agree on that just for this? 

Dian: Yes, I think I have. I have. 

Sean: So what do you feel like over those 16 years, you mentioned that at 40, you did that. What did you continue to do over those 16 years to develop that mastery? 

Diana: Well, I kept all of it running in my head. I mean, just every day, I was like, this is what I’m up to. This is what I’m up to. So I kept my attention. Just my attention on it in and of itself goes a long way. Then there was a lot around, if this is my North Star, then everything that was coming at me, I had to look at it and go, “Do you match this North Star or do you not match it?” And I had to be extremely discerning about, “No, that’s not mine to do. Nope, that’s not mine to do.” Even though it was so interesting and compelling, I had to say no a lot. And I actually think that saying no as much as I did was key to my being able to build my skills of mastery in this particular area of my life now. And so, um, yeah, if it was not a whole body, yes, aligned with my purpose and mission, then it was a no. And that made all the difference. 

Sean: Can you shine some light on the whole body, yes? 

Diana: Yeah, whole body, yes, is… 

Sean: I love how you light up too when you say it!

Diana:  Yeah, oh, whole body, yes. Whole body, yes, because my head is like, oh, that’s such a great idea. My head can just be excited about all kinds of ideas. But is my heart in it? Is my body in it instinctually aligned? So a whole body YES is using all of your centers of intelligence to make a decision on whether you want to move toward or away from something. And so I learned this from Katie Hendricks. She was her creation, actually, whole body YES. And it has been a really good guide for me, especially because I lead with instinctual intelligence. And for those of us who lead with instinctual intelligence, most of us did not get any education when we were young about, hey, as you’re making this decision, check in with your gut. And so now that I’m able to do that, and that knowing that that’s what leads, I’m way more effective in knowing how to move around in the world. 

Sean: How long have you been practicing that? 

Dian: Yeah, 25 years. 

Sean: Diana, I reached out to some long time listeners and one of the things that kept popping up again and again that they would love for you to explore is just marriage and relationships. And one of the reoccurring things is, what have you found like just the keys to being a great partner, to create a thriving and lasting partnership marriage or just relationship? 

Diana: Oh, great question. I love this question ’cause I would say, probably the thing now I would say, I am most proud of and what I have created in the world is my marriage. I think I have an exquisite marriage and I have invested so much into making it that. 

So what would I say? I just think candor is incredibly valuable that not withholding from your partner and revealing what’s going on is so, so important. You know, honestly, the 15 commitments are not just for work. They were, they are the playbook for my marriage. I use them exactly as I would encourage any leader to use at work. And so that’s my, that’s our, and we do. We have it as our playbook. Like, this is what we are both co-committed to these things. And I say, all drama happens because people are neither not co-committed or they’re not aligned around their agreements. So if you were going to have a beautiful marriage, the first thing you got to do is co-commit. Like I commit to revealing versus concealing. Do you want to commit to that too? Because if I go, “Hey, no, I don’t want to hear the truth,” or “I don’t want to know,” then we’re already going to have drama. I commit to feel my feelings. Are you committing to feel your feelings and let me have mine? Because if you don’t want me to feel my feelings, and I really want to, we’re already in trouble. So that co-commitment with really clear agreements, who will do what by when? Because so much drama happens. And so we do what we say we’re going to do, we don’t do what we say, we said we wouldn’t do. And so we can count on each other for that we’re playing the same game. And that goes a long way. And we just make sure that we prioritize that, you know, our marriage and we actually have a business meeting every Sunday that is the business of our marriage. And we go, we spend about 90 minutes every Sunday looking at how we doing, what needs attention, where our prioritizations are we on track, what are our goals as a couple. So that’s something we’ve tended to that very rarely. Like we would have business, it’s like the business of our marriage in all of its many aspects. 

Sean: I know you’ve been in an extremely long relationship. You guys are high school sweet hearts, right? 

Diana: We were, yeah. 

Sean: So I know without a doubt, there were gonna be some turbulent times throughout all of that. What allowed you to come out of a turbulent time better and stronger? 

Diana: Well, first of all, I would say, we’ve got to be willing to leave each other. And that was important because if you can’t have a relationship, you can’t really have a whole body, yes, in my opinion. And I think a lot of people don’t let it be okay to have a no. So we let it be okay to have a no. We still do. Like, you know, I’m still available. Like, is this what happened tomorrow? Like, I’m available for that. Um, so I think, I think that’s really key. Also, I didn’t make whatever challenges that we did have a problem. Like that we co-created all that so we could learn. And so there was no resentment about what had happened in the past. It was about being willing to welcome that that happened and that it was our, it was our opportunity to learn and grow. And we did. And thank you for that. And then we move on. I think I think lack of resentment and being willing to say, hey, if this relationship isn’t really what’s the best use of us anymore, then we can let it go. And we did. There were a couple of times I loved Esther Perel says, or somebody told me she said this about like every person has three marriages. And I feel like I’m on my third marriage with the same man. And I did let it go twice in which I really was willing to, you know, discover that there may be some other person for me. And we found ourselves wanting to reconnect. What would you recommend to someone whose partner is not willing to put in the work that you alluded to has been so beneficial? Well, there’s two options. One option is to say, “Hey, look, I love you. I enjoy being around you. It’s not ideal. There are some challenges. We have drama. And I see you don’t want to change. And I’m not willing to go leave this relationship. And I recognize that I’m committed to some drama with you on some regular basis because we’re not co-committed. Okay, no problem. Just don’t complain when you have your drama. You know, just go, “Yeah, I’m committed to having some drama because I’m committed to being with somebody who’s not co-committed. Nope. Okay. But otherwise, if that’s not working for you, then I highly recommend really challenging your partner to say, “Look, these things are important to me. Would you join me in learning how to live this way?” And if there’s enough drama and it’s not worth it to you to stay in that, then I would recommend going and finding somebody who wants to play the same game you do. And it’s going to be extremely helpful. 

Sean: There were a lot of questions around these partnership dynamics. So I think that’s going to open some people’s eyes up. But Diana, and I do want to learn

Diana: I want to say one thing, it takes time and practice. And I’m always like, put the time in, it’s worth it. And if you have children, it’s even more worth it. So, but, you know, we totally, we’re going to fall down. It’s going to be messy. You’ve got to be okay with mess for a while. And again, coming back to what we talked about earlier, you’ve got to be comfortable, being uncomfortable is really key to being able to create that successful relationship. 

Sean: Diana, what are you in pursuit of now? 

Diana: What are my in pursuit of now? Well, Jim and I have a new book deal. So we’re starting a new book all around actually. What does the container look like for low drama in all group settings? We’re going to focus on work, but we’re going to have some slides off into marriages and parenting. So I’m excited about that. Continuing to keep bringing more content in the world and learning how to bring it in ways that help people learn even more quickly. That’s one of the things I’m interested in is how can I get these ideas out? That’s really ultimately, when I learned these things 25 years ago, I felt mad. I was like, why did I just get these tools now? These are game changers. I remember vowing. I’m going to use the rest of my life to figure out how to get this out to the world. I’m always in the pursuit for how can we make this simpler, easier, and get more people engaged. And so that’s a constant pursuit for me. 

Sean: Yeah, I need to plug your stuff too. The listeners, no, I don’t say things lightly. Your work, the group, at Conscious Leadership, what you guys do, the value put out in the world, so much of it free to the amazing videos you put out, the resources you have for free on the website are truly incredible. The website’s Conscious.is. So conscious.iss and you guys have to pick up 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, literally a life-changing book, not only in terms of leadership, but what Diana was mentioning a minute ago, marriage’s relationship. It is truly an amazing playbook. I would tap into that. We’ll have all that linked up, but Diana, if you could do this, long form conversation, just interview anyone dead or alive, who would you love to do this with? 

Diana: Oh gosh. I think I would probably, I’d want to go interview like some of our great masters in the realm of spirituality, whether it was Buddha or Jesus, or I would want to hear that from their own lips, like what were you really saying and did the translation of what you were standing for really accurately come down to my ears or not? I think those are the folks I’d most be interested in talking with.

Sean: That would be awesome. Well, Diana, I want to make sure you also make the listeners to where anything else that we didn’t touch on here, anywhere else they can stay connected with you and what you’re doing with conscious leadership. 

Diana: Yeah, the website’s full of content. We put out I think a really good newsletter in which we bring a lot of new concepts every month and we, Jim writes something called going deeper that’s very popular. So we recommend going the website at the bottom of any of our page on our website is a place to sign up for a newsletter. But get on the newsletter because that’s where you’re gonna find all of the newest offerings and also the newest ideas and content we’re creating. So that’s what I recommend folks do to keep in the loop. 

Sean: Well, thanks so much for joining us on “What a Guy You There.”

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