Dr. Michael Gervais

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Description of course:

Finding Your Best is a true masterclass for your mind. In this online course curated by high-performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais and NFL head coach Pete Carroll, you will learn how to craft your own personal philosophy, set a vision, and apply the skills of confidence, optimism, calm, and mindfulness in your everyday life – as well as 12 other essential mindset principles.

Reflecting On The Tokyo Olympics

Sean: [00:00:03] Mike, welcome to What Got You There. How are you doing today?

Michael: [00:00:06] I’m fantastic. Thank you for including me. 

Sean: [00:00:09] Yeah. This is great. We originally had you on just over a year ago on Episode 187 and this one we’re going to cover more and just dive even deeper. But I have to know, just fresh off the Olympics, you’re flying back on that long flight, like what’s going on in your head? What are you thinking? What are you unpacking from the time?

Michael: [00:00:27] Yeah. Thank you for giving me a moment to reflect again. The games are special. It really is like no other event in that you’ve got the world’s greatest athletes in one place, and I’ve been fortunate enough to work across a couple of them, this being the third summer games. And the last two summer games, there’s something that takes place when you’re with a team. The team makes some sort of decision about what we are going to do between the gap of practice and maybe nighttime meetings, or maybe a second practice at night and sometimes a game depending on where they are.

So we make a decision what we’re going to do with our call it downtime, but it’s never really a downtime. And some teams are like, Hey, listen, families here, go see some other tournaments or some other games, go see some friends that are competing and some teams say, no, no, no, no. Let’s create a bubble. And this is in London and this is prior to Rio as well. And in these games, there was no choice. So, some athletes that had been to previous games had a really hard time because they couldn’t go out. There was no family, there was no support system. They couldn’t go see their friends compete.

They didn’t have the opportunity to see some inspired athletes do their thing. And it was down to the kitchen or to the cafeteria, eat some meals, have some team meetings. And then wait. And now I had a different experience because I went surfing this year, which was awesome. It was incredible. So we created a bubble and there were 14 of us in a place that was 90 minutes out of Tokyo. And we brought in a chef, two chefs, actually, we brought in all of the right skilled folks to be able to help the athletes be in their prime. And it was amazing because we had this tight bubble and there were lots of rich, meaningful, purposeful, and casual nonsensical conversations that were happening in the lounge chairs, in the cafe, in our living room, if you will. It was great.

And so these games had a markedly different experience for the world’s best athletes, just like COVID reflected that there’s a markedly different experience for people across the planet. Frontline workers had a very different experience than white collar executives. And so I think it was a true reflection of the conditions that we have right now. And it was wonderful.

The Three Summer Games’ Experiences

Sean: [00:03:11] Speaking of those different experiences, you mentioned taking place in three different summer games. If we’re looking at your progression personally, what’s the difference between those three? One of the questions you ask is if you had different chapter headings for this, what are the three different games like for you?

Michael: [00:03:27] That’s cool. Obviously the first is learning and excitement. I was learning, I felt like as much as they were receiving. And I still think that that’s the case in the last one, but there was a different nature to the learning because I hadn’t seen it before. I hadn’t, there was no way to really get your arms around what it means to be in those environments. And so world championships don’t compare. And so that was London. And then Rio was, what would I say? A chapter heading to Rio was complicated. And Rio is complicated for a couple of reasons. I was with the USA women’s volleyball and the best in the world. And we ended up, I would say underperforming, we took a bronze. And the reason I say under-performance is because there’s much more talent.

And it wasn’t fully expressed. So it’s complicated from that nature. And it came down to literally two points, in a series of probably, I would say 250 points that were scored throughout the tournament. Two points determined the difference for us between golden and bronze. And so that was one. And then the other complications, I was supporting two teams, women’s beach and women’s indoor volleyball. And so it was about an hour’s distance between and I was shuffling back and forth as best as I could. So it was complicated and we also were managing Zika. I don’t know if you remember that, but there were these external conditions that were taking place.

And so that one’s complicated and this one was like pure joy, being part of surfing, being in the bubble. The intensity was real and wonderful, but I would say this one was so joyful for a number of reasons, is that all the pre-work that we did ahead of time, and this is materially important for anyone running a business. It was the planning and pre-work and people that made all the difference. I think it’s wonderful that one of our athletes, Chris Moore, took home a  gold, and that is fantastic. That is a major objective and it’s hard to do. The USA had 39 golds when it was all said and done. And so to get one of them is a big deal. And I think though the experience was so meaningful for all involved that even if we didn’t have that incredible win, that the experience was really rich. And so there’s a deep joy that was part of the camp. And so those would be the big headers.

Sean: [00:05:59] It’s so cool. You highlight the pre-work, we’ve got to double click on that and I would love to know what’s going through your head when you’re describing that, clearly there’s the impact there.

Michael: [00:06:09] Yeah. So from an organizational structure standpoint, there were probably about five people that were weighing in and making a difference to execute against the pre-work and the pre-work came from the structure. So our head of surfing, the director of USA surfing, put a ton of resources and energy and intelligence into creating an environment, a physical environment where people could do their very best work. And so there was no stone unturned and there was incredible scrapping for resources to have the right stuff there. And so they leaned on their partners in important ways and to have the right stuff. 

I’m talking about physical modalities and psychological skill stuff that we’re able to do ahead of time having all the equipment and cold tubs and hot tubs and the right types of showers and the right types of bedding. So we had one of our partners bring in mattress tops that were unbelievable compared to the ones that some of the other folks were struggling with. I’m kind of skipping over a lot, but there was the thoughtfulness about the pre-planning to get ahead of things that potentially could go wrong and they did a great job.

Sean: [00:07:24] What I love about that is all of the people working behind the scenes. I feel like there’s this energy, the athletes feel, and they understand that team commitment. It’s like the energy of the wheels between the spokes right in the center. And it’s like that work that everyone’s bought in, everyone’s doing, it has such an impact. And it’s just so cool to hear like your direct hand experience. 

Lessons From Participating In The Olympics

And I’m wondering what do you only learn by being fully immersed in that environment? Like you could read about it and you could watch but until you’re there, you just don’t learn the lessons you took away this time.

Michael: [00:07:59] When you’re around the best in the world at what they do, there is a different language that’s spoken. And you get to shorthand a lot. It’s kind of like folks that come back from military experience and they’re in the theater, or folks that as a community have gone through something really heavy like an earthquake or … What I’m thinking right now is because I’m influenced by a woman who her family went through a genocide experience and a whole generation of people was lost. 200 people in her family were dead. And so when she talks about it, how they process that there’s a shorthand. So I’m using it on the other side to talk about sport, but there’s a language. 

Let me give an example. When two of the elders that did survive would say something like Hey, what happened three years after we got back and whatever, whatever? And there’s a shorthand where they’d say, I survived that, or that was a tough one. That was a tough winter. And it’s a shorthand for like, I got challenged. I was on my knees. I didn’t know what to do. I was scared out of my mind, like things weren’t right for me. And so that is in one part of the human experience that when you go through something hard and difficult, there’s a shorthand that only those people in those experiences can really understand and have such regard for the experience of humanness. 

And then on the other hand to not make light of that in any way, there is a shared language between worlds best where there’s certain looks, there’s certain phrases, there’s certain gestures, there’s certain timings of things that I don’t know how to put words to it, but that is part of it as well. So an example is when knowing how to understand kind of the… I’m going to shorthand and call it vibe, but that’s not quite the right word, but it’s understanding the energy of the people. And I don’t want to sound woo because I’m standing on the shoulders of great scientists and I feel like I’m making a departure using the word energy, but there’s an energy between people and a great plan might be to do some sort of team experience, but the energy is weird or it’s off. So there’s the getting ahead of that versus missing it downstream. 

So if you get ahead of it, you can actually help influence the environment towards, and the people towards some sort of state or to explore that state at a deeper level. And then, but if you’re downstream of it, it is kind of disastrous. And so it’s like you want to be able to, and everyone’s doing it because they’re so primed and they’re so switched on that there’s a sensitivity about readiness and repair that is really unique. So it’s constantly figuring out that difference between recovery, repair mode and that readiness coiled up in strike mode. And it’s toggling between those, that is really intense because the best in the world, they know that they’re the best in the world, or really close to potentially being, being the absolute best, because that’s what competition’s about. You don’t really know. And there’s this really interesting confluence between anxiousness and competence.

Sean: [00:12:15] We will talk about that. 

Michael: [00:12:17] …  that dissonance and that confluence between the two is that what makes sport wonderful and ultimately what makes life wonderful is that we don’t know how it’s going to go. And when you want to know how it’s going to go, and you know that if it doesn’t go according to plan, there’s going to be pain on the other side, maybe financial pain, likely emotional pain for many. And that becomes so challenging to folks that it kicks up all the ancient parts of our brain that are going into survival mode and in the same very, or the next breath. I should say, there’s a deep knowing that the competence is world-leading and world-class. And so it’s that toggling between the two that is really tricky for folks.

And if we can go again, I’ll use the analogy upstream. If we can go upstream and really work in a purposeful, grounded way that the “not knowing” is actually quite exciting. And I’m not talking about some pithy thing that you’d see on Instagram like reframe this or whatever. Like I’m not talking about that, but like really making a fundamental first principle shift that the unknown is actually the most exciting part of life. When the unknown creates anxiety for people that’s one of the reasons we have a disorder, a mental disorder, and I say this as a trained psychologist of clinical anxiety and people that are struggling with pre-performance, mask maybe as other types of anxiety. What they’re really looking for is relief and folks that are looking for relief, it’s really hard to do one’s very best when you’re trying to create an escape away from the intensity required to do your very best work.

And that holds true in living rooms that holds true in boardrooms that holds true in any competitive environment. If you’re looking for relief, you’ll probably miss the good stuff. And why do we look for relief is because we are uncertain because the uncertainty that is unfolding right in front of us is scarier than exciting. And that is a psychological construct. And so there’s the framing of it going upstream. How do I think about the unknown, the unfolding, unpredictable, unknown, and then do I have the psychological skills to meet that when it is unfolding? And the beautiful part of the human experience is that it’s always unfolding right now. Jesus dude. I have no idea what I’m about to say. So it’s always unfolding.

Curiosity

Sean: [00:15:01] I love it. I want to unpack this even more because I didn’t have this reference, how I operate now, when I was playing elite athletics. So before it’s like you set the situation and then you set expectations and then if the outcome doesn’t align with those expectations, there’s disappointment, there’s frustration.  Where now it’s going into the unknown, and the way I approach it is from this place of curiosity. I don’t know what’s going to happen, but let’s see. It’s going to be a hell of a lot of fun. I’m wondering how you approach that. Like specifically,can map this out on a piece of paper? What’s the internal dialogue going on in Mike’s head?

Michael: [00:15:38] Okay, so you’re hitting one of the greatest anecdotes, inoculators. One of the great states to be in as a curious mind. If it is authentic to you and it’s real, and it’s not something like someone told me to be curious, I’m going to try to be curious. It is so freeing. I do a couple of things. There’s some research around the act model, acceptance, commitment, training, or acceptance commitment theory. And that model has found great evidence that curiosity is a really important framework to go to think about the future. And that concept has also been around 2,500 years, like the childlike Buddha. 

The part of being a Buddha is a childlike mind and being relentlessly, uncommonly, exploratory, curious about how things work and how they come together. So that’s all really good as a first person experience. If you play a video game, there’s a first person view where you’re kind of in the car, right. If you will, then you could zoom up to the helicopter view and the helicopter view experience of what we’re talking about is kind of getting the big picture and zooming up and seeing how the actors in the experience are taking place. And from the big picture, depending on how, at what altitude you go to…  

One of my mentors as a young, when I was like 15, I think it was more like 17, he gave me an incredible gift. He said, you know, Mike, he was flying like 200,000 feet, not 30,000. And he flew way up and he goes, Mike you’re really special and you don’t really matter that much. And I looked at him like, whoa, what kind of turn did you just take us on? And he goes, yeah. We’ve been around for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, and then they reminded me of some of the greats and he goes like Jesus changed the world and set the calendar and kind of put a tall stake in the ground about how important love is, and he did that by 33, and that was 2000 years ago, by the way, dude. 

And you know, tens of thousands of years ago, people were figuring out fire. How about it? So like figure some stuff out, dude. Don’t be so wrapped up in yourself. And at the same time, know that there’s a specialness about you and that specialness is available for all people. And so that’s kind of the tension, the duality non-duality between the two is like, you matter Sean, and at the same time, like Jesus, there’s a lot to do in this world. How many galaxies are there right now that we think could have human life? Like it’s mind-boggling.

It’s keeping all that in perspective, that’s a 200,000 foot view and then zooming right down. It’s like the 30,000 foot view is something like we’re all going home, win or lose with our loved ones. Sport was born out of war, preparation for war. And when war goes wrong for one tribe or the other one community, the other tribe is taken hostage and taken ownership of and children and women and whatever. The men that are tending to the tribe are killed, raped, and taken possession. So let’s remember this is still a sport. This is still a luxury. This is a wonderful way to experience life. So let’s keep that in perspective. 

I don’t know if you’ve been in a locker room, post a loss, when it seemed really big. You probably have plenty of those. Right? What happens? Like what happens to that perspective? It’s almost as if you can’t show that you’re okay after a loss, because it’s this weird code, the shared language that was talking about a particular culture. Like I was nine years with the Seattle Seahawks and if you’re okay on Monday after Sunday’s game, that sends a signal like you’re not okay or that you don’t care. 

And so I remember thinking that that was going to be a really nice, important piece of work if we could have Mondays feel appropriately matched to the experience that we just felt and the excitement of what’s to come, so appropriately matched, meaning that nobody died, right? 

And so we still have this incredible opportunity to live our life aligned on a shared mission. And that mission hopefully matters to everybody. There’s a little bit of an equalizer, some people care more than others, but to come in and have that appropriately matched care and not be, have to have this doom and gloom life is over things. So anyways I’m down in the weeds with some Monday morning experiences as opposed to the 200,000 view of you matter, Sean and not. 

Self-discovery Process

Sean: [00:20:50] No, no, I absolutely love it. I’m actually curious about this whole perspective on Monday. And I feel like one of the things we do is we let our internal be affected by the external, and it kind of sounds like that’s the scenario. Like, even if you’re feeling something you’re not expressing on Monday, how do you handle that? Like how do you not allow the external to impact the internal to the degree most of us allow it to?

Michael: [00:21:12] I think that you’re hitting on the essence of the inner work, which is like you build over time, the right frameworks, the right walls, the right internal structures, the right windows. I’m thinking about in my mind, like a really strong based skyscraper. Like when you build that from a psychological standpoint, it just ends up happening that way. There’s a sense of freedom in that I can sway in the wind, I can be locked and grounded in a way that doesn’t get pushed around and a more appropriate analogy versus a skyscraper is more like an ancient tree that has deep roots.

And this is one of the reasons I love the Aspen trees is because those roots are actually not deep, but they’re so intertwined and interconnected with other trees that it is one tree. And so I love the Aspen analogy for humanity is that we are really connected, both from a, it’s gonna sound weird, from the Stardust standpoint, but also from the shared experiences in psychology. So to answer your question, when you do the deep internal investment training, who am I, what am I, what are the skills? I’m sorry, who am I? What am I, what is my purpose in life? What are the skills I need to experience life in a meaningful way that is the essence of psychology.

If I make it even more simple, it’s self discovery and psychological skills, those two core components. I really have a hard time with this, Sean, this is not a question for you or me, but why do we not invest in psychology? How did we get this so wrong that it is so taboo for centuries? Think about your parents, your grandparents, and their grandparents, like psychology was like for the weak. I’ve got a logical answer, but I just have a hard time understanding why we’re not investing properly. And so it’s not hard, Sean, it’s really not as you know, but it takes time.

And the work is scary sometimes because you are in the self discovery process, it’s like, is that really who I am? Because I do lie. I do this. There’s dark sides to all of us. And to embrace that and to not be overrun by it. And I do get scared and I do get embarrassed even though I don’t want to show those things, but those that’s true. So how do I live in an authentic way where I have these difficult internal, emotional experiences matched up with the way that I want to be? Which is strong, and I want to be strong and kind and kick ass and be reliable and dependable and fill in the blanks. But I’ve also got these other things that I got to work with too.

So how do I do that? And be honest in a self-discovery process, that’s the hard part. And then on the psychological skills, if I really want to own some psychological skills, that means I have to get on the edge and the edge is messy to really test those skills and refine those skills. I’m going to have to find the razor’s edge where at one point I could be calm and then I’m no fucking longer calm, and that shit is real and it’s scary. And so I think most people that are not in that shared language, I was talking about with the Olympics or game-changers in business or the arts, their true purpose is to look good, to be accepted as opposed to a first principle of exploring the internal and the external capability that you have. Call it human flourishing, call it human potential, call it capabilities, what is the true first principle? And if you’re honest with yourself, really honest with yourself, your life will change when you make that first principle true.

Sean: [00:25:49]100%. And I love how you highlight. It’s hard. There’s some real hard, scary shit you’ve got to face and it takes time. You know how much your work has impacted me. And now I’ve even taken your Finding Mastery Course. And then I had one of my best friends who reached out and he knew you were coming back on and he’s like “Sean you do not understand. Like Dr. Gervais’ class just unlocked me. It was hard. I had to do the work. There was something on that other side. I didn’t even know it was in me.” And it’s been so fun to watch. 

When you have people who’ve been in your life for 20 plus years, and you actually get to watch that, see that shift. It’s like, Ooh, there’s something special there. So I’m saying this because he’s not an Olympic athlete. I mean, he believed me. He was a high achiever, high performer, but it’s like, it’s in there. It’s capable of us. We just got to do the work to get it out of us. And so it’s been cool to see. So like, I need to thank you too in unlocking me and other people with my life. It’s just so good to see.

Michael: [00:26:52] Oh man. Honestly, thank you so much for sharing that because my hair is standing up right now. I’ll tell you why that’s materially important in a minute, but my hair is standing up, because that was the hope, the belief is that we are amazing. Humans are amazing and there’s so much dormant potential that’s in us. This is my life’s purpose is to help people live in the present moment more often so that they can experience the present moment where all things that are true, beautiful, and good are experienced. It’s where human potential is expressed. It’s where wisdom is revealed. And because of that, it is my life purpose to help people live in the present moment more often.

And to hear that I’m like, yeah, man. So that’s how we designed it. We designed it from good science and all of the best practices that happen in that I’ve been fortunate enough to learn from and add to in elite sporting environments. And we put those together and then translated that for folks that are non athletics or not in elite athletics right now. So it’s business, it’s parenting, it’s art. And so thank you, dude. And hey, let’s do this. You can decide how you want to activate this, but let’s share a couple of those courses. No cost to a couple of, let’s do two of them where however you want to activate. No cost to the course, it’s $500 each in value. So it’s a thousand dollars for your community to invest. And the only thing I would ask for in return is that if they enjoyed it and they found some sort of return that they pay it forward in some way, by sharing the practices with somebody else in your community. And I’d be stoked to do that.

Sean: [00:28:52] No, Mike, I appreciate that. We’ll have that linked up guys in the show notes. So definitely check that out. 

Michael: [00:29:00] Sean, let’s do it like this. Let’s compete. Let’s have them kind of show up in a way where they’re like, listen. I know that there’s thousands of people that are part of the DeLaney crew here and I really want this thing. Make a case for it. Let us feel you. And again, it’s a psychological skills training course. The same way that we treat elite athletes, we give you the same good stuff.

Authentic Self-expression

Sean: [00:27:55] Awesome. I love it. A little competition never hurts. You bring up something I’m just really obsessed with at this point. And that’s authentic self-expression through your art, that art can actually be like painting, music or it can be athletics. I feel like I got to that place of authentic expression through my sport of lacrosse. And then try to do that at this later stage. How many of the elite and we’re talking like the elite elite performers, are all of them operating from that place that their craft is their authentic self-expression?

Michael: [00:28:24] No. Some folks that are the best in the world are complete disasters. They’re a mess and I love them anyway, that’s not what this is about. There’s a gentleman that I’m thinking of right now that he rolls out of bed after drinking way too much, pizza for breakfast and burgers for dinner, and he jumps 42 inches and runs like a four, three without stretching, 4, 3, 40. And for folks that don’t know sport, that’s craziness, that’s not supposed to happen. So sometimes when you have this radical genetic predisposition and it comes so easily, it’s actually problematic to potential.  And so he needs a better, more competitive environment to pull the best out of him. But he’s with the best in the world at his sport. 

There’s a boredom that can come when you’ve got this genetic gift that is unexpressed. So no, not everyone’s got their stuff together. And I’ve got a soft spot for folks that are talented enough but their will is like, you can’t phase them. They’ll keep coming. They’re hungry for more. They’re searching for more. And then when they cross over to I trust me, I trust others. I trust that I’ll figure this out. I trust that no matter what happens, I will be able to adjust even when it’s hard and I’m going to keep going, but I know how to trust, and I’m going to keep pushing, and I know how to trust.  

When you get those two things together, it’s that high stress work rate with intelligent recovery that is folded in with a strong community that is folded in with a deep trust. It’s like we got some… so those are the folks that I love to spend time with and work with.  I’d rather spend time with them than the genetic freaks that had it too easy, too early. But the genetic freaks that have that other stuff that just talked about, those are the world changers. I’m less interested in athletics than I am in humanness. I’m way more interested in humanness. Can I share an idea with you that is really important to me?

Sean: [00:32:40] Let’s do it. 

Humanness

Michael: [00:32:43] So right now we’re thinking about the future of work and I’m fortunate enough to spend some time with some of the brightest minds in the world about what the future of work is going to look like. And so we’re laying some bets and we’re laying bets on investing in “humanness”. And I got to keep some of this vague because I can’t go into it right now. It’s not fair to my partners. But we’re investing in “humanness” in a meaningful way, as opposed to the old model. I’m going to call it old, but it’s still current in some big businesses. And you could look at some businesses that are human, are more factory driven and the humans just kind of do your job, keep your head down, next person up, and if you don’t do it…  

Listen, we’re only gonna pay you $6 an hour. I’m thinking globally for a moment without naming countries. We’re only going to pay $6 an hour, and if you don’t, we got more people that are lined up and we’re going to squeeze every ounce of your essence. We’re going to extract every ounce of your essence. And we don’t do not try to be creative here, just do your job. And so there is a global war that is going to take place around this principle. And the beginnings of it are taking place now where companies and countries are getting blurred. And so who’s going to win? You know where I stand and I know where you stand, Sean. I know who we want to win. And I think that and I really mean this, in a human potential capacity we spend so much time at work that if the conditions at work are the extraction model, we are failing.

We know better, science is better. We see the world’s best talk about it in sport and other places about the last frontier. There is this creative flourishing human expression that is only available to us. Machines cannot do it. And companies that are minimizing and exploiting the lower parts of the human experience, and they are larger than corporations. I’m sorry. They’re larger than countries. I think we have some challenges there. So this is me looking down the road around a couple of corners for the next decade. And then we’ve got on the other side of it. We’ve got this beautiful commitment that people matter. And let’s invest in the humanness of what we’re doing as a shared mission. And I’ve been in both parts of the sporting world that have done it both ways and business is now having those conversations, but the stakes are significantly higher.

Sean: [00:35:45] You mentioned, like looking down 10, 15 years out, if you’re looking at that model, what does that look like? Like the complete encapsulation of what that person’s life is like during that time?

Michael: [00:35:58] Which time? The flourishing model or the other?

Sean: [00:36:03] Yeah. We’re being optimistic here.

Michael: [00:36:05] Yeah. So what do you mean by that? What does their experience look like? 

Power Control Extraction Model Vs Human Flourishing Coaching Model 

Sean: [00:36:10] I guess it’s because I’m really curious about how you view the oscillation of life. And I know you’re a hard charger and one of the big questions. How do we balance all this, right? I mean, you want to be a great family man, and you want to be great with your career. And it’s not just like, all right, this is how I do it. What’s truly going on underneath the surface to make sure we’re flourishing there?

Michael: [00:36:33] Well, let me answer it in a really narrow way. And it’s an important part of it, but not the complete part of it by any means, but a significant piece of this puzzle is, or this tapestry that we’re trying to understand of human potential is chronic stress. So if you’re not taught and we don’t have the structures to reflect the best practices and best principles in human recovery and human stress, we will find ourselves in a company state or a national state of chronic stress. Chronic stress is underlying and underpinning just about every disease model that we have. We created that out of anxiousness. Why anxiousness? Because we’re not sure how to think about the future. 

So what do we do? We apply effort and we work that this is part of people that care and are smart and are capable and they’ll apply what they can to their best ability, which is hard work. And when we stop there, we run into chronic stress. When we are in a state of chronic stress. Hans Selye, when his model was introduced in 1940, I’m blanking on the exact date. I think it was like ‘38, 1938, Hans Selye, where he talked about the general adaptation syndrome. And so when people don’t respond properly, I’m going to take some liberties with his model right now. When they don’t respond properly to acute stress, there’s chronic stress. And over time, chronic stress leads to fatigue, stillness, burnout, and early death.

How about that as a model? So we have to get the chronic stress symptoms right by going upstream and teaching the psychological skills that are nested and rested in good science. That creates an environment where leaders in companies are teaching the psychological skills and principles to get ahead of upstream, to get ahead of the external conditions and the internal skills for people to do their best work over time. It’s the company’s responsibility to set the purpose, to set the scene, and have the mission be very clear and to train the leaders on how to … Those that really understand that humans are the most valuable asset in any business, even if whatever, fill in the blanks. And I know what I’m saying about AI, this, that, and the other, like humans are “it”. 

It is leaders’ jobs now to turn from executives that are extracting and the smart ones in the privileged seat that have the power and control to those that are going to set the external conditions, and train the internal skills. Psychologists will inform you about what those best practices are, along with other smart folks. But executives are now going to find this switching to becoming we don’t have the right word, but we think it’s going to be like coaches. Coaches psychological skills. And essentially that’s what I would hope that folks at the Seattle Seahawks might say is like, yeah, like some of the coaches might say, yeah, that’s right. I have a better understanding of the psychological skills based on the work we did so that I could teach them to the athletes. And then when that happens, the whole system creates this rising tide where all boats are floating.

I hope I’m being clear because in my mind, it’s super clear that executives go from a power control extraction model to a human flourishing coaching model and setting the external conditions and the internal skills for that to take place, that will address chronic stress. The two week vacation doesn’t work. Meditation everyday doesn’t work. It’s good. Don’t get me wrong. Both of those are cool. And I’ve been meditating for 25 years. I mean, the science and the practice of that is meaningful, but those, those alone… By the way, it’s still corporations or companies saying, Hey, meditation is really good. Do that later on your own time. What later? Because I have an AM shift where I’m in meetings until six, 6:00 PM.

And then I have a PM shift where I’m answering emails and doing the deeper work. So what shift do you want me to do on the PM shift or the AM shift? And so this is built in. I want to speak right to every leader that is listening right now, build it in, create the space. It will be the most massive investment you make in yourself, in your leaders and the other folks in your company to create space, to do the internal skill development work. It will be the greatest return on investment, but it’s also right. It’s right, because that’s what people are craving. We were not taught these skills in high school, in college. There was no finishing school to be a great executive to teach these skills to others. Now is the time to do it? And so that’s where I want to spend the next chapters of my life doing. 

Sean: [00:41:56] I love it. It actually reminds me I’m going to get this person wrong, but it was from the finding mastery course. And I want to say it was like the ex COO of AT&T. It was some big company. And he was mentioning how he spends, I think it was like two hours in the morning getting himself right. The meditation. And it was either you or Coach Carroll who asked them, how do you find the time he goes, no, no, I don’t have the time not to do that. Meaning like if he doesn’t get that work in everything else that he does the rest of the day, week, month diminished because of that. And to your point, it’s gotta be built in. So I’m wondering for you then… 

Michael: [00:42:27] Sean, Sean, can I hit you on this real quick? So that was the former CEO of AT&T and it was on the podcast. You can listen to the full version on the podcast. It’s also in the course and to your point, “how can I not?”  is the statement. And I had them out at a game at one of the Seahawks and we’re on the sidelines and it was pregame. And I don’t know if you’ve been to the Seattle stadium before. It’s one of the loudest stadiums in the NFL. It’s pretty amazing.  I said that too lightly, it’s flipping amazing. And so we’re on the sidelines and I look up and it was kind of drizzling. So we had heavy jackets on and athletes were warming up.

There’s a buzz in the air. The stadium is probably at this point three quarters of the way full. It sells out every seat, of 68,000 seats. And it, again, is the loudest stadium in the NFL. So, you could feel the buzz in the air. And I said, Hey, John, there’s 68,000 people here. How many people roll up to you? How many people do you manage? And he goes, five of these stadiums. I do. Yeah, that to me is incredible. That is so inspiring. And for him to say, how can I not invest in myself? I must be great for people. I must “be my very best”. I must be. I’m not doing the old way of business. I’m not staying out late and throwing my hand up saying that I’m a hard charger, legend, I don’t need to sleep for five hours. Let’s toughen up. That’s so old. And so the hustle hard idea it’s broken, don’t buy it. To really explore your potential, you do need to work hard and recover intelligently every day. And that is not just rest and meditation. That is psychological skills to meet the moment, this moment with the right amount of focus intensity to be able to execute at your highest level with others. And it’s not hard, but it takes investment. So again, I want you to just say that that’s why I want to spend the next decades of my life helping folks get this thing right. Because personally I’d be a mess without it. 

Sean: [00:45:05] I even want to know more about this, like earlier on you were talking about building that strong foundation. And so you kind of hit on some of those key frameworks for you. Anything else that you’re just like, Sean,these are first principles. This is essential for me to be able to operate and to give myself to the world the way I am today.

Michael: [00:45:23] I love your energy dude. Seriously. I know you’ve invested here, in the psychology of excellence, I feel it. I feel your curiosity and I feel your energy about it. You’re exactly the type of folks I love to spend time with because it’s like, Hey, how about this? And how about that? And okay, how do we get right there and then execute there? And I think this fits squarely down the mission, our shared mission or is this off a little bit, but is it going to get us. That’s the right stuff. Okay. So I actually forgot your question. I was kind of enthralled by the nature of it more than the material of it.

Essential First Principles

Sean: [00:46:01] You’ve done so much work. And earlier you were talking about the foundation that you set, like you’re not having a skyscraper without a foundation and you hit on a few of the key frameworks, like the first principles you go to. I’m just wondering what some of those other ones where you’re like, Sean, these are essential for anyone. I’m wondering how you view that.

Michael: [00:46:19] Okay. That’s a cool question. I think it’s a mistake for me to assume my first principles would work for anybody else. I’m happy to share some of my first principles and I also kind of get in my head a little bit about it, like no, create the space so the first principles are true for you. 

Sean: [00:46:42] There we go. So how did we get to that place? How are you creating that space?

Michael: [00:46:46] There’s three ways that I understand how to do it. And one is mindfulness practice. So listening, watching, observing. There’s two types of meditation or mindfulness, right? Contemplative where you’re observing thoughts and emotions and experiences without judgment and critique. And so there’s observational learning that takes place there to get to the essence of things, to get to the truth, if you will. And so that’s one way. And then the other type of meditation, just to not leave that hanging out there is single point focus where you relentlessly uncommonly focus on one thing for an extended period of time.

And that also creates a more of a dissonance when you’re focusing on one thing and you have this kind of pounding or pulsing thought stream that is pulling you out of that, like that’s really important as well. But that also trains you to be more present because you’re refocusing. That’s not what you asked. You asked what the practices are? Mindfulness is a practice. Journaling is a meaningful practice because it’s a forcing function to get some words from your native tongue to get the words down on paper. And then the third is conversations with people. And if those people have wisdom, listen more than they talk, which normally people of wisdom will do. That is then you can learn from them by exploring concepts. And so those are the three best practices.

Sean: [00:48:23] That last one makes me think of an axiom you have, and it’s through relationships that we become. That’s your relationship with stress, with adversity, and with other people as well, when did that formulate for you?

Michael: [00:48:36] Well, I think my wife was my first teacher there. I mean, certainly my parents built the foundation. But my wife was my first teacher about moving from conditional to unconditional. And so moving from kind of commitment to full commitment. My wife was my first teacher there and I’ll just pause here for a moment because oftentimes people want to ask about, “okay, what can I learn from the world’s best? What are some of the common themes and practices, principles, and blah, blah, blah. What’s science?” I think that there’s a common thread here. Many folks play the long game of expressing their potential, it goes over multiple decades and then crosses from sport to business as an example, or from arts to something or whatever. That is that intimate relationships are really important, like maybe at the foundation. I think that’s so fundamental as a first principle for me. So, there’s one there. My wife has been that for me. And the second is my mentor from a young age. The same mentor I was mentioning earlier he was just all about it. And so he’s got influence in the science of psychology and also native American principles.

And so it’s remembering you are nature. Nature is not the ocean, that is nature too. Nature is not the ocean alone or the park or the tree or whatever, you are nature. And so this whole ecosystem, this external world around you works in balance or disbalances imbalance from your internal ecosystem. So what are you gonna do? Build the relationships. And so that’s where those principles begin and hopefully don’t end. 

Sean: [00:50:35] I love it. We can learn so much from mother nature. It’s pretty scary. 

Michael: [00:50:39] And you are mother nature. That’s the deal now, right? Is that we’re not separate from, but we create all these right angles we use. In COVID we’re using jail term language, like COVID, does it sound like it’s a living thing? It is. No, we want to make it like an enemy. We want to quarantine. We want to “isolate”. We want to inoculate like, holy, like what are we doing? Honestly, as humans, we love right angles.  We love jail term kind of military frameworks which is power and control, which is not harmony and synergy and whatever. 

And so I think that when teams work at their best, they’re more like a flock of birds that are vibing off each other and twisting and turning in harmony then. And even a pack of hyenas, if you want to see it that way, but they know that together they’re swarming and surrounding, and there’s a connectedness to what they’re doing. And so whatever, I like the bird analogy better than the hyenas, but hyenas are fun too.

Sean: [00:52:00] There is also synchronicity to it.

Michael: [00:52:03] Yeah. All that being said, we are mother nature. And anytime we’re using right angles in our language or in our behaviors or in what we’re building and my home has right angles, so I’m part of the problem too. But the right angles are problematic especially from a psychological perspective.

Sean: [00:52:20] Yeah. Mike, I blacked out here in terms of the time. We’re not going to go much longer. I just wanna know that you’re not going to jump off?

Michael: [00:52:27] Hey dude, you got me in, I’m in. This is one of my occupational hazards is that I get lost in what I’m doing. And so I’m really enjoying this conversation, Sean.

Sean: [00:52:38] Yeah. So am I. I’d actually love to explore the element of nature a bit more. Some people, they go through life and they never even wake up to that. That we are part of that. For you where did that come from?

Michael: [00:52:51] First principles from first people. And so first people, the natives. I am enthralled, I’m gripped by their philosophical approach to life. And I’m deeply entrenched in science. And so it’s that, that modern science meets ancient traditions. That intersection I find to be fascinating and hard. And so that’s where it comes from. And that’s primarily influenced by my mentor that I was sharing with you. 

Sean: [00:53:32] When you mentioned it’s hard, what exactly do you mean by that?

Michael: [00:53:36] Well, because many first principles, I’m sorry, many of the ancient traditions and wisdoms are so appealing to me, but then science doesn’t back them up. And then the stuff that’s happening in a laboratory it’s hard to translate that into practice often. So natural experiments are really special to me, things that happen in the natural environment, but they’re hard to have enough control, to have certainty over. And so that’s that, the art of science is taking what happens in the laboratory and mapping it into the real world in a meaningful way. In my line of profession is to help advance the human condition, the human experience, if you will.

And some of those early principles, whether they’re world religions or the native philosophies that I’m talking about, like those things don’t map. They’ve been around for years and they don’t map well to science. And so which ones do you work to create the crosswalks? And that to me is one of the hard problems in science. So there’s three hard problems that we talk about in science, consciousness being one of them that sits in psychology. And this is the application of science, for me it’s embedded under one of the three hard problems in science alone. So I just want to add that to the wrinkle. Knowing how to apply science is really quite tricky.

Sean: [00:55:10] I love your framing there. Create the crosswalks. That’s awesome, man. You can just tell, having this conversation, like you do the work. But I actually want to explore the work that you do that we wouldn’t even be aware of. We know you’re putting in the work to be able to be there for those world-class athletes, but you’re one of the best presenters I’ve ever seen. And so there’s this whole other depth and element that you must be working on. Like how much do you think about that overall? Let’s just call it performance for you. What are the levers you’re pulling there?

Michael: [00:55:52] Thank you for the compliment. What I want to do is my purpose is really clear and so I can’t figure out how to meaningfully advance my purpose without partners, without support, without communities, and other people that are switched on about it too. So when I am presenting, if you will, … presenting for me is like, it conjures up like a keynote or some sort of workshop that I might be given for a company. That’s where I feel like the only time I’m presenting and when I’m doing that, it is a latent to purpose.

I don’t know if you have an intimate loved one, or if you have a child or a parent for that matter. But if your love for them is really clear, you’ll do whatever it takes. You’ll jump in front of a bus. And so that’s how it feels for me when I go on stage, like this purpose really fucking matters to me. And so I’m going to come from my most authentic place because that’s all I know how to do when the purpose is clear and anytime I’m not coming from that place I’m wrong. And so that’s being purpose-driven and it keeps me up at night. 

The thing that I’m waking up thinking about. How to build on those axioms “through relationships we become”, how do we build the right systems in place and the right connections with people to help unlock human potential by helping people live in the present moment more often, like that is my purpose. Help people live in the present moment more often. We got to train. In our minds, we got to get some frameworks in place for people to go. Oh yeah. And part of that is embracing that which ain’t so good for you sometimes. So like, what is the suffering, like where’s your pain and let’s get real now.

If we can do that together, because that’s what I need to do. Like I’ve crashed and burned too many times. I’m not going to “fake it till you make it” is bullshit. It just doesn’t work. And so bringing that into the things that keep me up at night and the investment in myself and others, it just feels like what else are we supposed to do? I don’t know.

Sean: [00:58:19] You make my hair stand up right now. I love this. One of the things I feel like early on people are still wrestling with is, they’re like, I’ve got my purpose. They feel like they have it. And then those hard times come in, it’s like, am I fulfilling my purpose when I’m meeting these challenges? Or am I just in the wrong direction? Like the fundamental first order question. Am I on the right ship here setting sail? How do you figure that one out?

Michael: [00:58:43] I think you will be on the wrong ship sometimes when you lay some bets, hopefully not too often. If you get on the wrong ship, know how to swim, like figure some stuff out, there’s a scrappiness there. But the purpose is, it might change. You don’t have to get a face or neck tattoo of your purpose. Mine has changed and it might change again. This one feels really big to me and it feels important to me. 

So I’m going to play the long game on it, but I’m completely open that it might change, because I will be better tomorrow than I am today. And so when I am better, I might know better and be able to do better. And I might be able to see things differently and say it differently.  I think that it’s to give yourself space, but then also talk about it with others. Meditate about it, write about it. And when you do those three, you know when it’s not totally real. You know when your hair stands up, you know when your throat swells up when you start talking about something, and so you are your greatest calibration tool about what true north is. 

And if you don’t create the space to get to putting the wayfinders on the compass, then it becomes very hard to go through life and the external worlds and what other people want you to be, and want you to do will win. And so creating that space. Like I said conversations with wise people, journaling and mindfulness are the three practices that have been materially important to me.

Ancient Wisdom

Sean: [01:00:27] Man, Mike, this is just such a beautiful conversation. I know we’re going to pull the ship into here in a minute. I’m wondering though, you mentioned some of that ancient American Indian wisdom. Where else do you go or have you gone for some of that? Just like timeless, true wisdom.

Michael: [01:00:42] Natives have much to offer and there’s a “romancing” of that too, that I want to be careful of. It’s like the conversations around samurai, there’s a “romancing” of that too. I want to make sure that I’m not being naive with you that there’s one source and one place. There’s a luxury that I get to have to kind of skim across and drop down in depth in places that I’m choosing or that I’m included or being invited in. But then I wish I knew more and I wish I understood deeper. I am kind of moving across the top layers of many of these and in depth in a few of these. But where’s the source if you ask. 

It needs to go through a filter. And so that filter is materially important. The filter is your understanding of how you can make sense of these principles that have been around for thousands of years. And it’s not just blindly adopting what their first principles are, but it’s working from how would I, or how could this or does that make any sense to me? Like, you know what, doesn’t make sense to me, praying to the rain god. I don’t get it. I think that we know a little bit better, maybe not, but like, so those things that… 

And I’ll share this with you, the professor who said this to me. It was a course on Buddhism, Christianity and Confucianism and the philosophy and practice of all three of them. This was an undergraduate. And so my minor was in philosophy. My degree was in psychology. And then just to kind of play it forward for your audiences, that my master’s was in exercise science. And then my PhD was in psychology, licensed as a psychologist, specialization in sport and performance. And so I said to him, what I love about Confucianism is A, B and C. You know what I love that Buddha did was bang, bang, bang. And how about Jesus and Christianity? Like holy moly, like A, B and C. 

And what if I took those nine principles? And he smugly looks at me. He goes, yeah, so you think you’re a little bit better than Jesus, Confucian and Buddha together? Come on, dude. I cautioned by saying it has to go through a filter, but that’s the way that I’m doing. I respect you, Dr. Cruzio. Actually it was Dr Perkins. I remember him as Dr. Perkins, like when you said that to me, but I don’t know another way. So it’s reading to be familiar with the stuff that has stood up over time. 

So read the Gita, the Bhagavad Gita, read the Bible or have some interpretation of the reading because it’s a tricky one, read from Taoism what Lao-Tzu had to write, from the Tao Te Ching, read some from Buddhism and Confucianism. Get into some of the first principles and then read like authors that have stood up over time as well. And so that’s how I do it, so I’m much more interested in journals, journal articles from science and the ancient wisdoms that have stood up over time. So that’s where I spend most of my time reading.

Sean: [01:04:32] I love it. Say one of those ancient sages, you can sit down with for just an unobstructed conversation. Who are you going with?

Michael: [01:04:39] Can I kind of pick those three or those four? I think I’ve got to hang onto Jesus. He’s into some cool shit and equally like Buddha and I’m out of those three, I’d be less interested in sitting with Confucius, but I would like to sit with the legendary Lao-Tzu. It’s not even known if he existed or not. Have you spent any time with the talented Tao Te Ching?

Sean: [01:05:10] Yeah. I have spent a lot. I’ve gone really deep there. That’s that one. I’m like, Ooh, I would love it if he was a single person, to have that conversation.

Michael: [01:05:20] Yeah. I just don’t know what I can get out of it. I feel like what I get is another riddle. That’d be like, Hey man, I need you right now. Where I feel like if it was a conversation with Jesus or Buddha, that’d be like, yeah. It’s all right, man. Just put your heart in the right place. You’ll be okay. I think they remind me of the heart and sometimes I get all caught up in my head.

Sean: [01:05:43] I love it, man. It’s just too good. It really is. I’m telling you, we talk about those people that are transformational. Each time it’s just like steps are taken in that continual arrows of progress, anytime I’m listening or having a conversation with you. So I just want to thank you. This is awesome.

Michael: [01:06:02] I appreciate your kindness in it. And thank you for including me in your community and thank you for creating a meaningful community. I’m stoked that we’re going to give a few out here to the courses and whatever I can do to support you guys in other ways, let me know how I do it. I need help on this mission and purpose, like I need help. So let me know, please.

Sean: [01:06:28] I’m bought in. We’re going to have everything linked up anywhere immediately. You want to direct the listeners. We’ll have it all linked up, but anywhere they should check out right.

Michael: [01:06:36] Yeah, there’s a couple places. Social media is fun because it’s like a place where you can find most stuff. And so all my social media, it’s @michaelgervais G-E-R-V-A-I-S. And then we’ve also got to @findingmastery. Both of those are. Instagram is probably a better place there. LinkedIn is cool, I’m active there as well. Same thing, Michael Gervais and then the websites. There’s two, we’re going to fold, we’re going through a merger right now. 

We’re going to fold two brands and create one halo brand. That’s taken some thoughtfulness there, but so we’re folding two in, but right now, Finding Mastery is the podcast. And so it’s findingmastery.net. And then for the business bit, it’s called Compete To Create and that’s competetocreate.net. And so you can find bits and pieces on both, but we’re in the middle of creating a merger between those two companies and entities and hopefully creating a halo brand that is really clear. So we’re doing some of that creative dive right now.

Sean: [01:07:40] Awesome. I love it. Mike, I can’t thank you enough for joining us on What Got You There.

Michael: [01:07:46] Hey Sean, I appreciate you.

 

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Finding Your Best is a true masterclass for your mind. In this online course curated by high-performance psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais and NFL head coach Pete Carroll, you will learn how to craft your own personal philosophy, set a vision, and apply the skills of confidence, optimism, calm, and mindfulness in your everyday life – as well as 12 other essential mindset principles. 

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